X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 19:31:27 -0500 From: Herschel Kanter X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en]C-RR032399 (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Cartefact- State Quarters Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I don't remember seeing any discussion on the list about the use of maps in the state quarters series being minted since 1999 and to continue through 2008. . So far of the 20 states that are released, eight used maps. Pennsylvania, Georgia, Massachusettes, South Carolina, NewYork, Ohio, Indiana have used their state map. while Louisiana used a map of the Louisiana Purchase.imposed on a current map of the US (48 states only). Of the five quarers to be released in 2003, only Illinois has a map. Missouri is devoted to Lewis and CLark, but without a map. The following were the design criteria and guidelines given to the states. Maps are not mentioned as possibilities nor are they excluded. Design Criteria The 50 States Commemorative Coin Program Act provides for designs to be submitted in accordance with the design selection and approval process developed by and in sole discretion of the Treasury Secretary. Because it is important that the nation's coinage and currency bear dignified designs of which the citizens of the United States can be proud, the Act further requires that the Secretary shall not select any frivolous or inappropriate design and no head-and-shoulders portrait or bust of any person, living or dead, and no portrait of a living person may be included in the design. Guidelines Designs shall maintain a dignity befitting the nation's coinage. Designs shall have broad appeal to the citizens of the state and avoid controversial subjects or symbols that are likely to offend. Suitable subject matter for designs include state landmarks (natural and man-made), landscapes, historically significant buildings, symbols of state resources or industries, official state flora and fauna, state icons (e.g.. Texas Lone Star, Wyoming bronco, etc.), and outlines of the state. State flags and state seals are not considered suitable for designs. Consistent with the authorizing legislation, the states are encouraged to submit designs that promote the diffusion of knowledge among the youth of the United States about the state, its history and geography, and the rich diversity of our national heritage. Priority consideration will be given to designs that are enduring representations of the state. Coins have a commercial life span of at least 30 years and are collected for generations. Inappropriate design concepts include, but are not limited to logos or depictions of specific commercial, private, educational, civic, religious, sports, or other organizations whose membership or ownership is not universal. See http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/50sq_program/index.cfm?flash=yes&action=schedule http://www.statequarters.com/Coinage.asp _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Al Magary" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Cartefact- State Quarters Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 19:11:45 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Most of the state quarters are unimaginative and some are dreadful. But I am, like millions of others, tucking away three of the better ones I get in pocket change, to pass along to the kids. Slate had a state-by-state slideshow review of the quarters, with this intro: The State Quarters Why are they so ugly? A slide show. By Carol Vinzant Slate, posted Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 8:39 AM PT http://slate.msn.com/id/2070005/ The federal government, which is usually reluctant to tinker with U.S. money, is engaged in the most radical and democratic currency-design experiment in its history. Since 1999, the U.S. Treasury has issued 19 of the 50 coins in its decadelong state-quarters project and has approved the design for one more. For the first time in memory, states-not the U.S. Mint-are designing their own coins. The results are not encouraging. Most of the designs, usually chosen by a state commission appointed by the governor, are boring, timid, and cluttered-evidence of all that can go wrong when art is created by committee. They are also surprisingly revealing about the peculiar, parochial ways that states view themselves. [To see the comments about individual quarters, go to the article URL above, then click on the slide show URL.] ---- Al Magary _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Cc: lis-maps@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Subject: RE: [MapHist] Death of Arthur David Baynes-Cope Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 09:17:28 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 For any who may wish to know more (with Lis-maps subscribers copied in, too):- According to the announcement in 'The Independent' of yesterday (Wednesday 1 January 2003) the funeral service will take place at All Saints Church, Stanton, Suffolk on Tuesday 7th January at 14.45, followed by cremation: "No flowers by request, donations if desired to Marie Curie Cancer Care, c/o A.E. Thurlow & Son, 1 High Street, Ixworth, Suffolk IP31 2HH." Francis f.herbert@rgs.org -----Original Message----- From: tony campbell [mailto:t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk] Sent: 31 December 2002 16:24 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Death of Arthur David Baynes-Cope Kirsten I had had no idea he was ill - a result, I suppose, of my being rather out of the loop these days - what with rarely darkening the BLML door. To pass on, peacefully, at his Suffolk home would, I imagine, have been exactly as he would have liked it. We shall, truly, never see his like again. I'd forgotten the square globe - I hope his obituarists will pick it up. Happier thoughts for 2003! Tony ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul S. Seaver" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [MapHist] Death of Arthur David Baynes-Cope > Thank you to Tony for announcing this sad news to the list in such a > graceful manner. In addition to the qualities mentioned, both the > good and the quirky, I want to stress what a loyal, patient friend > B-C was to those who were willing to receive what he had to give. He > also had a nice sense of humor! To her dying day, Helen Wallis > treasured the square globe which B-C had made her. > > Kirsten A. Seaver > > > [posted to MapHist and lismaps] > > > >I have just heard the sad news that Arthur David Baynes Cope died last > >Friday (27 December), peacefully at his Suffolk home after a long illness. > > > >Invariably known as BC, he had been a conservation officer at the British > >Museum. He worked on a number of early maps and globes, always in close > >consultation with his British Library colleague and friend, Helen Wallis. > >He held strong and firm views about the Vinland Map, which he had examined > >when it was at the British Museum. A number of you will have heard the > >lively talks he gave on that and other subjects. > > > >BC was delightfully idiosyncratic and will be much missed by his many > >friends and former colleagues. He was a mine of information about > >everything you could possibly want (or not want) to know, with a > >delightfully subtle sense of humour. The British Library Map Library still > >(I think) treasures his model for the storage of rolled maps that looked to > >have been closely modelled on a Fench Revolutionary tumbril. > > > >Tony Campbell > >t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk > > > >_______________________________________________________________ > >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > >the views of the author. > >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > > > -- > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Info: This message was accepted for relay by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net as the sender used SMTP authentication X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVb0KUdwPfGJ2mMPD5NNZCqhS9e5IeW24mDrcKXHRqGAAsdriN2YABuTbMl3tVu6D44= X-Sender: sanderva@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 16:13:00 -0500 To: From: SHD Web Subject: [MapHist] SHD Meetings in Mexico and New Orleans; Essay Contest Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 To all map lovers, historians, explorers, and those interested in the history of discoveries: The 2002 Meeting of the Society for the History of Discoveries was held in Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico from October 24-27. The meeting summary, abstracts of all the presentations, report of the post-tour to the Copper Canyon, PLUS photos of the meeting and the post tour are now available at the SHD Web Site www.sochistdisc.org The 2003 Meeting will be held from October 23-26 in New Orleans. Initial information about this meeting is also at the SHD Web Site. Further questions concerning the 2002 or 2003 meetings should be directed to Richard Francaviglia at francaviglia@uta.edu ESSAY CONTEST: At http://www.sochistdisc.org/essay-contest.htm you will find the details of SHD's annual essay contest. Please, those of you at colleges and universities, and those who might know about some promising work being done in the 'discoveries' field, pass this information along to those qualified persons who might be interested in applying for the prize. A cash prize is awarded, plus other benefits. *************************************************** Thomas F. Sander SHD Web Content Manager P.O. Box 10793 Burke, VA 22009-0793 USA Tel: 703-426-2880 Fax: 703-426-2881 E-Mail: sanderva@erols.com Web: www.sochistdisc.org ----------------------- excuse cross posting _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "George S. Carhart" Organization: University of Southern Maine To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 17:04:22 -0500 Subject: [MapHist] Anti-Gallican Society X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 0100,0100,0100I am looking for information about a Society of Anti-Gallicans that is thought to have been founded in or around 1745. The only reference that I have is from a newspaper article on an Rococo art exhibit in which one of the items was “The badge of the Antigallican Society”. The article also notes that the society was founded (in 1745 or thereabouts). This may also be the Anti-Gallican society of Robert Sayer’s and William Herbert’s 1755 political map of North America. Any help would be appreciated George George S. Carhart Cartographic Associate Osher Map Library Smith Center for Cartographic Education University of Southern Maine P.O. Box 9301 Portland, Maine 04104-9301 USA (207) 780-4910 gcarhart@usm.maine.edu _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: deelong@mail.gci.net Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:28:58 -0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [MapHist] Anti-Gallican Society Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Re: [MapHist] Anti-Gallican Society
George,
        A quick Google search turned up three hits on the society, two of which looked promising.
        Dee


I am looking for information about a Society of Anti-Gallicans that is thought to have been founded in or around 1745.  The only reference that I have is from a newspaper  article on an Rococo art exhibit in which one of the items was  “The badge of the Antigallican Society”. The article also notes that the society was founded (in 1745 or thereabouts).
This may also be the Anti-Gallican society of Robert Sayer’s and William Herbert’s 1755 political map of North America.

Any help would be appreciated

George

George S. Carhart
Cartographic Associate
Osher Map Library
Smith Center for Cartographic Education
University of Southern Maine
P.O. Box 9301
Portland, Maine 04104-9301
USA
(207) 780-4910
gcarhart@usm.maine.edu
_______________________________________________________________
MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.nl

--
The Observatory,ABAA
200 North Franklin
Juneau, Alaska 99801
deelong@alaska.com
http://www.observatorybooks.com
Our 25th Year
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Info: This message was accepted for relay by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net as the sender used SMTP authentication X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZjQh7i9klmw/uY9Uzi+oiM31JvN3IsEwX5QMFVyQieD5TloN6NIlud5WTcXhCwuDo= X-Sender: sanderva@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 17:45:20 -0500 To: From: WMS Web Subject: [MapHist] "The Portolan" (Washington Map Society) - Issue 55 - O'NEILL on Maps and Archeology and George Washington; RUMSEY on Historical Maps on the Internet; JOHNSON on eBay for Map Collectors; GEISSENHAINER on Maps on Silk; Dahmann on the US Statistical Atlas breakthrough of 1870; Conference and Symposium Reports; Book Reviews; and More. Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 "THE PORTOLAN": JOURNAL OF THE WASHINGTON MAP SOCIETY ISSUE 55 (Winter 2002-2003) -------------------------------------------------------------- Issue 55 (Winter 2002-2003), consisting of 76 pages was published in December 2002 and has been sent to all subscribers and members in good standing of the Washington Map Society. PATRICK O'NEILL describes how maps and archaeology played a key role in finding colonial structures on a farm owned by George Washington. DAVID RUMSEY describes how he got started and where he is today in his project to bring historical maps to the Internet and manipulate them using advanced technologies. BERT JOHNSON reports on a worldwide survey of collectors who have used eBay to build their collections and provides interesting conclusions and advice for those using this auction medium. LORI GEISSENHAINER describes how she developed a business that focuses on placing old maps on neckties and scarves. DONALD DAHMANN reports on the U.S. Census Statistical Atlas breakthrough of 1870 and describes today's opportunities. BERT JOHNSON reports on the Garrett Lectures and Texas Map Society meeting of October 2002, and notes the current status of preparations for ICHC 2003. TOM SANDER reports on the Colonial America map symposium held in New York plus the IMCoS Amsterdam Symposium. The award value of the 2003 Ristow Prize has been increased - full details are included. Winners of the 2002 Prize competition are announced. Three WMS members share thoughts about themselves and maps. Three books are reviewed. And there is more. "The Portolan" is published three times per year; issue 56 is expected to be released in May 2003. ---------------------------------------------------------------- CONTENTS OF ISSUE 55 WINTER 2002-2003 ARTICLES "Finding the Overseer's House at George Washington's Union Farm." By Patrick L. O'Neill "Bringing the Past Forward: Historical Maps on the Internet." By David Rumsey "eBay a Guide for Map Collectors." By Bert Johnson "Truth and Beauty--The Real World of Maps [Maps on Silk]." By Lori Geissenhainer "Visualizing U.S. Geographies: The Statistical Atlas Breakthrough of 1870 and Today's Opportunities." By Donald C. Dahmann RECENT PUBLICATIONS A regular feature in 'The Portolan,' this is a bibliographic listing of articles and books appearing worldwide on antique maps and globes and the history of cartography. By Eric W. Wolf. BOOK/CD-ROM REVIEWS "Degrees of Latitude: Mapping Colonial America" (Review by Barbara B. McCorkle) "The Hereford Map" (Review by Dr. Daniel K. Connolly) "Some Ideas about the Far South Before the Western European Age of Discovery." (Review by Norman Z. Cherkis) SHORTER ITEMS 1. Washington Map Society Meetings, January - May 2003. 2. Exhibitions and Meetings. 3. 2003 Ristow Prize Competition. 4. 2002 Ristow Prize Winners Announced. 5. Texas 2002 Cartographic History Spectacular. By Bert Johnson 6. Map Symposium on Colonial America. By Thomas F. Sander 7. 20th ICHC: The New England Conference Takes Shape. By Bert Johnson 8. IMCoS Annual Symposium in Amsterdam 2002. By Thomas F. Sander 9. Spotlight on the WMS Membership: Goodrich, Hadsel & Hudson 10. Map Site Seeing: Key World Wide Web map sites. 11. Cartographic Notes. By Thomas F. Sander. AUTHORS OF ARTICLES IN THIS ISSUE PATRICK O'NEILL, the Historian of Fort Belvoir, Virginia, has been involved in archaeology and historical research for 18 years. DAVID RUMSEY, President of Cartography Associates, has assembled a vast collection of historical maps, nearly 10,000 of which have been mounted to the Internet with interactive mapping and visualization features. HUBERT O. (BERT) JOHNSON, past president and past membership chair of the Washington Map Society, is a frequent contributor to "The Portolan." He is the Society's outreach chairman and coordinator of its involvement at the ICHC meeting. He has grown his map collection and cartographic library on eBay since 1997. LORI GEISSENHAINER is President of Civitas, a company that designs and produces maps on high quality ties and scarves. DONALD DAHMANN, Ph.D., an adjunct professor at George Washington University, spent 20 years at the U.S. Bureau of the Census conducting statistical research on population and housing topics. THOMAS F. SANDER is immediate past President of the Washington Map Society and the Editor of "The Portolan." BARBARA McCORKLE is retired map curator at Yale University. DR. DANIEL K. CONNOLLY, a research fellow at the University of Chicago, works at the intersections of medieval visual culture, histories of practices, and medieval ideas of time and space. NORMAN Z. CHERKIS is a consulting marine geoscientist and has worked in all five of the world's oceans, including extensive studies in both the Antarctic and Arctic regions. ERIC W. WOLF is past president of the Washington Map Society, current President of the Society for the History of Discoveries, and owner and chief of acquisitions of the Fiat Lux Library. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Web Site for more information about the Washington Map Society is at its home page: http://www.washmap.org A listing and index of the contents of all issues of 'The Portolan' is accessible via the Washington Map Society home page. Membership/Subscription Cost: Subscription cost is the same as membership, and may be commenced at any time. For U.S. and Canadian addressees, the cost is US $28.00 per year. For foreign addressees, the cost is US $ 34.00, which includes airmail posting of "The Portolan". Payment is accepted in US dollars only. Not able to accept credit cards. Multiple year memberships are now available. A membership/ subscription form can be found at the Washington Map Society Web Site. For further information, contact John Docktor at washmap@earthlink.net Current/Past Copies: Copies of 'The Portolan' beginning with issue 44 cost US$12.00 postpaid for US addressees; the cost is US$14.00 to other countries, which includes airmail posting. Payment is accepted in US dollars only. Issues 43 and earlier are available at a lower cost. A discount is given for orders of multiple issues. Inquiries concerning 'The Portolan' and current/past issues should be directed to the Editor. **************************************** Posted By: Thomas F. Sander Editor, 'The Portolan' Washington Map Society P.O. Box 10793 Burke, VA 22009-0793 USA Phone: 703 426 2880 International: +1 703 426 2880 Fax: 703 426 2881 International: +1 703 426 2881 E-mail: Sanderva@erols.com Web Site: www.washmap.org ************************************************** excuse cross-posting _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 10:29:06 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: [MapHist] British Empire and Commonwealth Museum Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I forgot to include the link to the actual museum page on the initial post: Joel Joel Kovarsky for THE PRIME MERIDIAN 385 Thistle Trail, Danville, VA 24540 USA Phone: 434/724-1106; Fax: 434/799-0218 email: jsk@gamewood.net Website: _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Dee Longenbaugh To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 06:45:10 -0900 X-Mailer: Netscape Webmail Subject: Re: [MapHist] British Empire and Commonwealth Museum X-Accept-Language: en Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Thanks, Joel, but my computer says the link doesn't work. Is that my computer or the link doesn't work? Dee Dee Longenbaugh The Observatory, ABAA tel 907/586-9676 fax 586-9606 http://www.observatorybooks.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Joel Kovarsky Date: Saturday, January 4, 2003 6:29 am Subject: [MapHist] British Empire and Commonwealth Museum > I forgot to include the link to the actual museum page on the > initial post: > > <" target="l">http://www.empiremuseum.co.uk/> > > Joel > > Joel Kovarsky for THE PRIME MERIDIAN > 385 Thistle Trail, Danville, VA 24540 USA > Phone: 434/724-1106; Fax: 434/799-0218 > email: jsk@gamewood.net > Website: <" target="l">http://www.theprimemeridian.com> > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility > forthe views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 17:00:27 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: [MapHist] British Empire and Commonwealth Museum Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Message contained an admin request. (and therefore it comes after Joel's second message!). Peter. From: Joel Kovarsky In today's ARTS section of the NY Times, there is a nice article concerning this private museum in Bristol. There seems to be a sizable cartographic association with this project. I am curious if some list members have been there already, and what initial impressions are. I gather this was covered earlier by the UK press. The link below requires one to s*bscribe to the online NY Times, but that is free. Joel Kovarsky _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: docktor@pop.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 11:15:39 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "John W. Docktor" Subject: Re: [MapHist] British Empire and Commonwealth Museum Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dee, The link worked for me. It must be your computer - or try again. John At 06:45 AM 1/4/2003 -0900, you wrote: >Thanks, Joel, but my computer says the link doesn't work. Is that my >computer or the link doesn't work? >Dee > >Dee Longenbaugh >The Observatory, ABAA >tel 907/586-9676 >fax 586-9606 >http://www.observatorybooks.com > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Joel Kovarsky >Date: Saturday, January 4, 2003 6:29 am >Subject: [MapHist] British Empire and Commonwealth Museum > > > I forgot to include the link to the actual museum page on the > > initial post: > > > > <" target="l">http://www.empiremuseum.co.uk/> > > > > Joel > > > > Joel Kovarsky for THE PRIME MERIDIAN > > 385 Thistle Trail, Danville, VA 24540 USA > > Phone: 434/724-1106; Fax: 434/799-0218 > > email: jsk@gamewood.net > > Website: <" target="l">http://www.theprimemeridian.com> > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility > > forthe views of the author. > > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John W. Docktor Phone: 717-846-8997 Fax: 717-845-9337 Cartography - Calendars of Events & Exhibitions: http://www.docktor.com/ Washington Map Society: http://www.washmap.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: bmccork@bluebird.mail.ku.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 11:29:49 -0600 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Barbara McCorkle Subject: Re: [MapHist] Anti-Gallican Society Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 George: If you find anything out, please let me know. I've done some searching and turned up nothing. Seems to have been either a very secretive society or the work of a few men. Barbara At 04:04 PM 1/3/2003 -0600, you wrote: >I am looking for information about a Society of Anti-Gallicans that is >thought to have been founded in or around 1745. The only reference >that I have is from a newspaper article on an Rococo art exhibit in >which one of the items was "The badge of the Antigallican Society". >The article also notes that the society was founded (in 1745 or >thereabouts). >This may also be the Anti-Gallican society of Robert Sayer's and >William Herbert's 1755 political map of North America. > >Any help would be appreciated > >George > >George S. Carhart >Cartographic Associate >Osher Map Library >Smith Center for Cartographic Education >University of Southern Maine >P.O. Box 9301 >Portland, Maine 04104-9301 >USA >(207) 780-4910 >gcarhart@usm.maine.edu >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Subject: [MapHist] chinese discoverers of America in 1/5/03 NYT Mag To: maps-l@listserv.uga.edu, maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.4 June 8, 2000 From: "ahudson" Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 13:13:02 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on MHTMAIL02/MHT/Nypl(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 01/04/2003 01:13:34 PM Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Fyi, a fun read in the Sunday New York Times Magazine on the author of the new book about Chinese discoverers of America...characterized in the piece as an "obsessed amateur" who looks at the mountains of Terra Incognita on the Waldseemuller map and sees both San Francisco and Los Angeles... Sorry, but my tired old brain just read the thing this a.m., and I have already forgotten the man's name and the name of his book. The brain can only handle so much, um, data. And, by the way, that's ok, no need to remind me. The mag is already in the bottom of the litter box. Alice Alice C. Hudson Chief, Map Division The Humanities and Social Sciences Library The New York Public Library 5th Avenue & 42nd Street, Room 117 New York, NY 10018-2788 ahudson@nypl.org; 212-930-0589; fax 212-930-0027 http://nypl.org/research/chss/map/map.html The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit. - Nelson Henderson _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "John Woram" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Anti-Gallican Society Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 13:56:56 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 On the Anti-Gallican Society, 1. A google-com search for "anti-gallican" turns up about 250 hits. 2. An abebooks.com search for "anti-gallican" finds 5 books, priced from $19.32 (a pamphlet) to $650. 3. A footnote in "The English Enlightenment and the Spirit of the Industrial Revolution: The Society for the Encouragement of Arts, Manufactures and Commerce" by Max Kent reads as follows: One of the most nationalistic semi-formal organizations which predated the Society of Arts was the Anti-Gallican Association. See, I. Hunt "Some Account of the Laudable Institution of the Society of Anti-gallicans" in A Sermon preached before the Laudable Association of Anti-Gallican, London, 1778. Also see "The Anti-Gallican Privateer" published in 1757. For a detail of meetings of Anti-Gallicans, see the "Gentleman's Magazine, XXIII, 1753, p. 199. An HTML version of the Kent paper is here: http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache:POZ0-OnEWpEC:elsa.berkeley.edu/~e ichengr/PAPER.pdf++%22anti-gallican+society%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 If this very long URL (ends with UTF-8) gets trashed, search google.com for "anti-gallican society" and note that one of the items has the cryptic label "[PDF] E:\MyDocs\WP51\All_UC\PAPER.rtf" -- This link seems to be among the missing, but the "View as HTML" link on the second line works. Hope this helps a bit, John Woram _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 14:18:09 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: Re: [MapHist] Anti-Gallican Society Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 At 05:04 PM 1/3/2003 -0500, you wrote:
I am looking for information about a Society of Anti-Gallicans


I don't know if this is relevant, but I copied it off ABE. If so, maybe a library can track some of this:

The Anti-Gallican: THE ANTI-GALLICAN or Standard of British Loyalty, Religion and Liberty London Vernor and Hood 1804. including a Collection of the Principal Papers,Tracts, Speeches, Poems and Songs, That Have Been Published on the Threatened Invasion: Together with many Original Pieces. Volume Numbers 1 - 12 (all published) Newly bound in red cloth, gilt. 496pp + iv index. continuously paged. Folding, hand coloured frontispiece, untrimmed, entitled "The Upshot of the Invasion, or Bony in a fair way for Davey's Locker" A second hand coloured folding plate, entitled "O My Johnny "etc. and a third folding plate, uncoloured , captioned "John Bull Transported,; or the Case Altered" Some offsetting from the plates, otherwise text is clean throughout, and the plates are Fine. The final 4pp of free e/papers have neatly added in ink, several patriotic songs and hymns, by the Rev. Owen. Loosley inserted is a 4 page folded sheet of notepaper, with more handwritten verses by Rev. Owen. A nice clean set of a very scarce publication. Bookseller Inventory #1743 Price: US$ 635.89 (Convert Currency) Bookseller: Reg Bladen, Shropshire, SAL, United Kingdom


                   Joel Kovarsky

 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Subject: RE: [MapHist] Anti-Gallican Society To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.4 June 8, 2000 From: "ahudson" Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 14:38:55 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on MHTMAIL02/MHT/Nypl(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 01/04/2003 02:39:26 PM Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Note also there were a dozen coffeehouses with the name Anti-Gallican. Dredged up from the dregs of the olde memory bank, but to verify, check out some of the books out there on the London coffeehouses, and 17th century London commerce. Alice C. Hudson Chief, Map Division The Humanities and Social Sciences Library The New York Public Library 5th Avenue & 42nd Street, Room 117 New York, NY 10018-2788 ahudson@nypl.org; 212-930-0589; fax 212-930-0027 http://nypl.org/research/chss/map/map.html The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit. - Nelson Henderson _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: seaver@seaver.pobox.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:19:33 -0800 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Paul S. Seaver" Subject: Re: [MapHist] chinese discoverers of America in 1/5/03 NYT Mag Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Thank you indeed to Alice Hudson for telling us MapHisters about the NYT Magazine article "Goodbye, Columbus!" by Jack Hitt, featured in the issue for January 5, 2003, on pp. 18-21. Our family does not normally get the NYT Sunday edition, but alerted by Alice I ran out and bought a copy this morning. Believe me, it was worth it. This amusing and cleverly written piece concerns the "1421" book by Gavin Menzies which claims to show irrefutable evidence for pre-Columbian Chinese circumnavigation and mapping of the world. Happy New Year, friends! Kirsten A. Seaver >Fyi, a fun read in the Sunday New York Times Magazine on the author of the >new book about Chinese discoverers of America...characterized in the piece >as an "obsessed amateur" who looks at the mountains of Terra Incognita on >the Waldseemuller map and sees both San Francisco and Los Angeles... > >Sorry, but my tired old brain just read the thing this a.m., and I have >already forgotten the man's name and the name of his book. The brain can >only handle so much, um, data. And, by the way, that's ok, no need to >remind me. The mag is already in the bottom of the litter box. > >Alice > > >Alice C. Hudson >Chief, Map Division >The Humanities and Social Sciences Library >The New York Public Library >5th Avenue & 42nd Street, Room 117 New York, NY 10018-2788 -- _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Philip C. Brown" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] chinese discoverers of America in 1/5/03 NYT Mag Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 16:22:51 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 People should note that this article on the Menzies book is available on line: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/05/magazine/05MENZIES.html Philip Brown _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "V+R Mayer" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] chinese discoverers of America in 1/5/03 NYT Mag Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:10:26 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear Maphisters One Caribbean Indian is said to have told another one on sighting Columbus' ships, "Well, now we have been discovered!" What does discovering mean? Discovering America is a completely Euro-centric idea. There was a heated debate on this issue in 1992; the agreed "correct" description of this historic occurrence is "the meeting" of Europe and America. Incidentally, the Caribbean Indians taken back by Columbus to be presented at the Spanish court did not discover Europe either. Norsemen, Chinese and others may have visited the misnamed American continent before Columbus. The historic importance of their voyages and maps, if indeed these existed, is limited to their bearing on later events. The coming of Columbus did have a decisive historic impact that the other travelers did not cause, it started colonization, the destruction of existing political, religious and cultural institutions, the establishment of trade and mining, changes in the ecology of the world by transferring animal and plant species in both directions, and many other changes in our continent and in the world at large which would take volumes to describe. Naming an article "Goodbye Columbus!" and believing that previous visitors to America diminish his role in history is losing historic perspective. It would be fruitless to debate whether all the changes brought about by Columbus' voyages were for the better or for the worse. That is not for history to judge. History is only interested in relating what happened, why it happened and what the consequences were. Not being a professional historian I am afraid that I am opening myself to censure. Happy New Year! Roberto L. Mayer ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip C. Brown" To: Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 3:22 PM Subject: RE: [MapHist] chinese discoverers of America in 1/5/03 NYT Mag > People should note that this article on the Menzies book is > available on line: > http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/05/magazine/05MENZIES.html > > Philip Brown > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: seaver@seaver.pobox.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 19:18:33 -0800 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Paul S. Seaver" Subject: [MapHist] "Goodbye, Columbus!" Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I hope that Roberto L. Mayer will be able to access the NYT Magazine article through the URLwhich Philip Brown kindly provided on this list. When he does read it, he will find that he need not worry about the author's intent. Mr. Mayer wrote (in part): >"Naming an article "Goodbye Columbus!" and believing that previous visitors to America diminish his role in history is losing historic perspective." Very far from espousing such a view, Mr. Mott (the author of the article) expressed polite bemusement and disbelief concerning the "1421" book by Gavin Menzies. It is Mr. Menzies, not Mr. Mott, who believes that Columbus and John Cabot have no right to claim laurels which Mr. Menzies thinks belong to the Chinese. Mr. Mott is not concerned here with either Columbus or the results of Eurocentrism, but in large part with the lack of solid evidence for the Chinese circumnavigation thesis announced by Mr. Menzies. Best regards, Kirsten A. Seaver -- _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 20:31:37 +1300 From: Michael Ross Subject: RE: [MapHist] "Goodbye, Columbus!" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Kirsten I read Mr. Mayer's email quite differently to your interpretation. > I hope that Roberto L. Mayer will be able to access the NYT Magazine > article through the URLwhich Philip Brown kindly provided on this > list. When he does read it, he will find that he need not worry > about the author's intent. As I read his posting, Mr. Mayer was raising the critical issue of Euro-centrism. He rightly points out that we still claim that Columbus "discovered" "America", knowing he was not the first European to visit those shores...while denying the same claim to the "Indians" who travelled with Columbus back to Europe! Compounding the matter is the Euro-centric "evidence" approach. You stated: > Mr. Mott is not concerned here with either Columbus or the results of > Eurocentrism, but in large part with the lack of solid evidence for > the Chinese circumnavigation thesis announced by Mr. Menzies. What does "solid evidence" mean? European records/maps/portulans/texts? How do we know there is not "solid evidence" in China? How do we know there is not "solid evidence" in Europe?...merely because we have not yet found it? While we might feel distinctly uncomfortable with the huge linkage leaps Mr Menzies makes, we cannot simply dismiss any new elements he may have uncovered merely because they have not been revealed by a member of the academic community. I, for one, intend to look a little more closely at the trees, and not become distracted by the apparent forest. Michael Ross _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Anti-Gallican Society Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:17:17 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I don't know if Mary Pedley is either still subscribed or is back at Ann Arbor, but I could swear that she talked and/or wrote on a map associated with the Anti-Gallicans. And the 18th-century map has cropped up on occasion in (dealers') catalogues ; Tony Campbell's catalogues for Weinreb & Douwma (one is talking 1970s-80s!) may turn up a nugget or two . . . (Ashley?). Francis f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives'] -----Original Message----- From: Barbara McCorkle [mailto:bmccork@ukans.edu] Sent: 04 January 2003 17:30 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Anti-Gallican Society George: If you find anything out, please let me know. I've done some searching and turned up nothing. Seems to have been either a very secretive society or the work of a few men. Barbara At 04:04 PM 1/3/2003 -0600, you wrote: >I am looking for information about a Society of Anti-Gallicans that is >thought to have been founded in or around 1745. The only reference >that I have is from a newspaper article on an Rococo art exhibit in >which one of the items was "The badge of the Antigallican Society". >The article also notes that the society was founded (in 1745 or >thereabouts). >This may also be the Anti-Gallican society of Robert Sayer's and >William Herbert's 1755 political map of North America. > >Any help would be appreciated > >George > >George S. Carhart >Cartographic Associate >Osher Map Library >Smith Center for Cartographic Education >University of Southern Maine >P.O. Box 9301 >Portland, Maine 04104-9301 >USA >(207) 780-4910 >gcarhart@usm.maine.edu >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] British Empire and Commonwealth Museum Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:26:33 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Joel: To describe it as a "private" museum seems odd; anyone can enter. Many 20th-century maps presently held there originated from a 'trimming-down of library' exercise by an extra-London academic institution; both Dr Gareth Griffiths (also acting as chauffeur) and I (i.e. the RGS) shared in the spoils. And I have more maps - duplicates to this Society - on offer to him when he responds to my e-mail offer of some weeks ago! Francis f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives'] -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl] Sent: 04 January 2003 16:00 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] British Empire and Commonwealth Museum Message contained an admin request. (and therefore it comes after Joel's second message!). Peter. From: Joel Kovarsky In today's ARTS section of the NY Times, there is a nice article concerning this private museum in Bristol. There seems to be a sizable cartographic association with this project. I am curious if some list members have been there already, and what initial impressions are. I gather this was covered earlier by the UK press. The link below requires one to s*bscribe to the online NY Times, but that is free. Joel Kovarsky _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] chinese discoverers of America in 1/5/03 NYT Mag Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:54:29 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 This may be an appropriate place to mention that the Menzies book is now available at GBP9.99 at branches of the book-selling chain Waterstones on this side of the Pond. Francis Herbert f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives'] -----Original Message----- From: Paul S. Seaver [mailto:seaver@stanford.edu] Sent: 05 January 2003 20:20 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] chinese discoverers of America in 1/5/03 NYT Mag Thank you indeed to Alice Hudson for telling us MapHisters about the NYT Magazine article "Goodbye, Columbus!" by Jack Hitt, featured in the issue for January 5, 2003, on pp. 18-21. Our family does not normally get the NYT Sunday edition, but alerted by Alice I ran out and bought a copy this morning. Believe me, it was worth it. This amusing and cleverly written piece concerns the "1421" book by Gavin Menzies which claims to show irrefutable evidence for pre-Columbian Chinese circumnavigation and mapping of the world. Happy New Year, friends! Kirsten A. Seaver >Fyi, a fun read in the Sunday New York Times Magazine on the author of the >new book about Chinese discoverers of America...characterized in the piece >as an "obsessed amateur" who looks at the mountains of Terra Incognita on >the Waldseemuller map and sees both San Francisco and Los Angeles... > >Sorry, but my tired old brain just read the thing this a.m., and I have >already forgotten the man's name and the name of his book. The brain can >only handle so much, um, data. And, by the way, that's ok, no need to >remind me. The mag is already in the bottom of the litter box. > >Alice > > >Alice C. Hudson >Chief, Map Division >The Humanities and Social Sciences Library >The New York Public Library >5th Avenue & 42nd Street, Room 117 New York, NY 10018-2788 -- _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 08:44:57 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) X-Mailer: IncrediMail 2001 (1800838) From: "The Portolan Group - Phil Stover" X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-FVER: 3.0 X-CNT: ; To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] "Goodbye, Columbus!" X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at pop015.verizon.net from [68.57.10.79] at Mon, 6 Jan 2003 07:45:20 -0600 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
I noticed this message header with some dread the other day.  I felt it would unleash the tired old politically correct debate of Euro-Centrism versus every other perspective of world history.
 
I am European.  All my direct ancestors came to America from Germany.  Am I not allowed to celebrate their heritage and their accomplishments --yeh--even to make their successes the point from which I view the world?
 
I would argue that as humans we all need a center...a perspective from which we view and understand the world.  To be non-centric is to be non-human.  It simply is not currently politically correct to be European or Euro-Centric.
 
I grew up among the Amish and the Mennonites.  To not be Amish was to be English.  To be English was to be worldly and spiritually less than to be Amish.  "Amishness" gave those folks their center.
 
As a young man I lived in Benin.  To be Borgu-centered meant that all the world on the other side of the Sota River was a terrible place full of demons and devils.  To explain that a man was on the moon in 1969 was laughable.  Yet, that was their Borgu-centric view.  It gave them cultural stability and a grounding.  Was it "correct?"  It sure was for them.
 
In graduate school I was the English pastor of a Chinese church in Los Angeles.  There, you were Chinese or you were second class.  Even among the Chinese there were differing strata depending on what part of China one came from and one's fluency with Mandarin.  Their Sino-Centrism was more important to them than their theology.  Woe to anyone who drove a Toyota.
 
The academic who mocks an author as an "obsessed amateur" is being "academy-centric."  Maybe that is his or her grounding...the frame of reference that gives meaning to his or her life. 
 
I believe the need for a center, for grounding is a function and need of the soul.  Therefore, it is impossible for a human not to be "centric" or grounded.  It simply is not in vogue to be Euro-centric.  I would argue that to be centered is something that is neither correct nor incorrect.  It is an essential need of the human condition.
 
Are those who say Columbus discovered America correct?  Were the Caribes and/or Arawaks  the original inhabitants of the islands?  Did Magellan really circumnavigate the globe? 
 
What about the world beyond the Sota River???? Perhaps the Beninese/Borgu weren't so far off after all.    As for me, I think that Ohioans discovered the moon.  Wasn't Neil Armstrong, a native Buckeye, the first man on the moon?  Or was he???????
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: Monday, January 06, 2003 02:37:33 AM
Subject: RE: [MapHist] "Goodbye, Columbus!"
 
Kirsten

I read Mr. Mayer's email quite differently to your interpretation.

> I hope that Roberto L. Mayer will be able to access the NYT Magazine
> article through the URLwhich Philip Brown kindly provided on this
> list. When he does read it, he will find that he need not worry
> about the author's intent.

As I read his posting, Mr. Mayer was raising the critical issue of
Euro-centrism. He rightly points out that we still claim that Columbus
"discovered" "America", knowing he was not the first European to visit those
shores...while denying the same claim to the "Indians" who travelled with
Columbus back to Europe!

Compounding the matter is the Euro-centric "evidence" approach. You stated:

> Mr. Mott is not concerned here with either Columbus or the results of
> Eurocentrism, but in large part with the lack of solid evidence for
> the Chinese circumnavigation thesis announced by Mr. Menzies.

What does "solid evidence" mean? European records/maps/portulans/texts? How
do we know there is not "solid evidence" in China?

How do we know there is not "solid evidence" in Europe?...merely because we
have not yet found it?

While we might feel distinctly uncomfortable with the huge linkage leaps Mr
Menzies makes, we cannot simply dismiss any new elements he may have
uncovered merely because they have not been revealed by a member of the
academic community.

I, for one, intend to look a little more closely at the trees, and not
become distracted by the apparent forest.

Michael Ross

_______________________________________________________________
MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.nl
.
____________________________________________________
  IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here Embedded Content: IMSTP4.gif: 00000001,25ff9bd7,00000000,00000000 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 08:52:22 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: RE: [MapHist] "Goodbye, Columbus!" Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 >Kirsten > >I read Mr. Mayer's email quite differently to your interpretation. > > > I hope that Roberto L. Mayer will be able to access the NYT Magazine > > article through the URLwhich Philip Brown kindly provided on this > > list. When he does read it, he will find that he need not worry > > about the author's intent. > >As I read his posting, Mr. Mayer was raising the critical issue of >Euro-centrism. He rightly points out that we still claim that Columbus >"discovered" "America", knowing he was not the first European to visit those >shores...while denying the same claim to the "Indians" who travelled with >Columbus back to Europe! > >Compounding the matter is the Euro-centric "evidence" approach. You stated: The term "discovered", much like "invented", must be considered in terms of the social context of which discovery/invention had major impact on its society. Indeed this is the sense in which we use it. It is not sufficient to discover something or invent something, if the word does not get out, or if the society is not ready for the invention/discovery. As we know, many others discovered the New World before Columbus, but either they purposely kept it a secret or didn't communicate it to the right people or Europe wasn't ready for the information. Of these, it is the last one that is the most interesting. Why societies/cultures are not able to use new information at some times and are at others. (Or know something and then forget it.) We see this frequently in technology and invention. This does not lessen the accomplishment of the earlier discoverers or the late one for that matter. It just makes the history more interesting! ;-) The Chinese may well have been in North America earlier than Columbus. For a very interesting example, look at the coast of Alaska on Ricci's 1602 map. It is reasonable close. But no European was known to have been there for another 100 years. Where did Ricci get his info? But even if they did, they didn't put the information to use and very few in China knew the information. > > Mr. Mott is not concerned here with either Columbus or the results of > > Eurocentrism, but in large part with the lack of solid evidence for > > the Chinese circumnavigation thesis announced by Mr. Menzies. > >What does "solid evidence" mean? European records/maps/portulans/texts? How >do we know there is not "solid evidence" in China? > >How do we know there is not "solid evidence" in Europe?...merely because we >have not yet found it? This is how scientific inquiry works when old information is challenged. It is the duty of everyone else to be skeptical and push for more proof. > >While we might feel distinctly uncomfortable with the huge linkage leaps Mr >Menzies makes, we cannot simply dismiss any new elements he may have >uncovered merely because they have not been revealed by a member of the >academic community. > >I, for one, intend to look a little more closely at the trees, and not >become distracted by the apparent forest. Actually, I think the current problem with Menzies theory is too few trees to make a forest. Take care, John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Dee Longenbaugh To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 06:23:26 -0900 X-Mailer: Netscape Webmail Subject: Re: RE: [MapHist] "Goodbye, Columbus!" X-Accept-Language: en Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dee Longenbaugh The Observatory, ABAA tel 907/586-9676 fax 586-9606 http://www.observatorybooks.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Ross Date: Sunday, January 5, 2003 10:31 pm Subject: RE: [MapHist] "Goodbye, Columbus!" Michael Ross, read below, takes the amateur-vs.-academia approach to the Menzies "discovery". I do hope he reads the NYT article before he champions the skillfully hyped book. San Francisco on the Waldseemuller globe? San Francisco Bay wasn't discovered until 1770. Chinese in North America? I can proclaim the Chinese were in Alaska because both Inupiat and Yu'pik people have the epithelial fold in their eyes. I can also hire a really good public relations company that will trumpet this discovery to the world. Nah, no one will care. You have to have excitement. How about adding a Chinese princess who was forced to flee her home with her loyal retainers aboard a fleet of ships that were caught in the great currents that swing around the Aleutian Islands and found themselves on the Northwest Coast? The current exists - Menzies hasn't mentioned the Fou Sang theory, but I expect he will. That one has been around a long time. It continue to amaze me that so many are eager for a little excitement in their lives, completely ignoring all the real mysteries that nearly all old maps contain. Of course it's fun to think of the doughty amateur confounding the scholars, but a reason scholars become such is, um, well, that they study the subject. Sigh. Dee > > I read Mr. Mayer's email quite differently to your interpretation. > > > I hope that Roberto L. Mayer will be able to access the NYT Magazine > > article through the URLwhich Philip Brown kindly provided on this > > list. When he does read it, he will find that he need not worry > > about the author's intent. > > As I read his posting, Mr. Mayer was raising the critical issue of > Euro-centrism. He rightly points out that we still claim that Columbus > "discovered" "America", knowing he was not the first European to > visit those > shores...while denying the same claim to the "Indians" who > travelled with > Columbus back to Europe! > > Compounding the matter is the Euro-centric "evidence" approach. You > stated: > > Mr. Mott is not concerned here with either Columbus or the > results of > > Eurocentrism, but in large part with the lack of solid evidence for > > the Chinese circumnavigation thesis announced by Mr. Menzies. > > What does "solid evidence" mean? European > records/maps/portulans/texts? How > do we know there is not "solid evidence" in China? > > How do we know there is not "solid evidence" in Europe?...merely > because we > have not yet found it? > > While we might feel distinctly uncomfortable with the huge linkage > leaps Mr > Menzies makes, we cannot simply dismiss any new elements he may have > uncovered merely because they have not been revealed by a member of > theacademic community. > > I, for one, intend to look a little more closely at the trees, and not > become distracted by the apparent forest. > > Michael Ross > > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Originating-IP: [63.231.87.51] From: "Lisa Davis Allen" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Texas County floor map Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 09:15:21 -0700 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jan 2003 16:15:21.0346 (UTC) FILETIME=[CFACBE20:01C2B59E] Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 To All Just a bit of information for anyone interested. While on vacation I went to the Waco County Court House (Waco, Texas). Inside I found a large mosaic floor map of the county directly under the main dome. Although this is not part of my research, I wanted to pass the find on to anyone interested. Lisa Dr. Lisa Davis Allen University of Colorado Denver Department of Visual Arts lda_cud@msn.com ldavisal@carbon.cudenver.edu _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Texas County floor map Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:21:51 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Lisa: I doubt if the County Court authorities would be happy for you to "pass the find on to anyone interested" - there are some very dubious dealers around . . . (or do you propose to do this at night in disguise?) Francis f.herbert@rgs.org -----Original Message----- From: Lisa Davis Allen [mailto:lda_cud@msn.com] Sent: 06 January 2003 16:15 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Texas County floor map To All Just a bit of information for anyone interested. While on vacation I went to the Waco County Court House (Waco, Texas). Inside I found a large mosaic floor map of the county directly under the main dome. Although this is not part of my research, I wanted to pass the find on to anyone interested. Lisa Dr. Lisa Davis Allen University of Colorado Denver Department of Visual Arts lda_cud@msn.com ldavisal@carbon.cudenver.edu _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Originating-IP: [63.231.87.51] From: "Lisa Davis Allen" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Texas County floor map Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 10:00:58 -0700 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jan 2003 17:00:58.0856 (UTC) FILETIME=[2F5B9E80:01C2B5A5] Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Francis no, no, no ... this is a large floor mosaic. I thought anyone researching mosaic maps might be interested in visiting the building and taking a look. Sorry for the confusion. Lisa >From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG >Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >Subject: RE: [MapHist] Texas County floor map >Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:21:51 -0000 > >Lisa: > >I doubt if the County Court authorities would be happy for you to "pass the >find on to anyone interested" - there are some very dubious dealers around >. >. . (or do you propose to do this at night in disguise?) > >Francis >f.herbert@rgs.org > >-----Original Message----- >From: Lisa Davis Allen [mailto:lda_cud@msn.com] >Sent: 06 January 2003 16:15 >To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >Subject: [MapHist] Texas County floor map > >To All >Just a bit of information for anyone interested. While on vacation I went >to > >the Waco County Court House (Waco, Texas). Inside I found a large mosaic >floor map of the county directly under the main dome. Although this is not >part of my research, I wanted to pass the find on to anyone interested. >Lisa > >Dr. Lisa Davis Allen >University of Colorado Denver >Department of Visual Arts >lda_cud@msn.com >ldavisal@carbon.cudenver.edu > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months >http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM: Try the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Texas County floor map Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 17:11:09 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Lisa: Oh, dear - my 'peculiar' sense of homo[u]r didn't strike home with you: by no means was I confused, nor had I *any* intention of suggesting that the mosaic might be 'lifted'! Although Jerry Post might care to compile a list of such cartographic floor *and wall* mosaics in USA - might he? Francis f.herbert@rgs.org -----Original Message----- From: Lisa Davis Allen [mailto:lda_cud@msn.com] Sent: 06 January 2003 17:01 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Texas County floor map Francis no, no, no ... this is a large floor mosaic. I thought anyone researching mosaic maps might be interested in visiting the building and taking a look. Sorry for the confusion. Lisa >From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG >Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >Subject: RE: [MapHist] Texas County floor map >Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:21:51 -0000 > >Lisa: > >I doubt if the County Court authorities would be happy for you to "pass the >find on to anyone interested" - there are some very dubious dealers around >. >. . (or do you propose to do this at night in disguise?) > >Francis >f.herbert@rgs.org > >-----Original Message----- >From: Lisa Davis Allen [mailto:lda_cud@msn.com] >Sent: 06 January 2003 16:15 >To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >Subject: [MapHist] Texas County floor map > >To All >Just a bit of information for anyone interested. While on vacation I went >to > >the Waco County Court House (Waco, Texas). Inside I found a large mosaic >floor map of the county directly under the main dome. Although this is not >part of my research, I wanted to pass the find on to anyone interested. >Lisa > >Dr. Lisa Davis Allen >University of Colorado Denver >Department of Visual Arts >lda_cud@msn.com >ldavisal@carbon.cudenver.edu > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months >http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM: Try the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 5.5.7.1 Beta Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 12:55:39 -0500 From: "Edward James Redmond" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Texas County floor map Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I fear that this thread will soon be as big as Texas... Edward Redmond Reference Specialist Geography and Map Division Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave, SE Washington, DC 20540-4650 (202) 606-8548 ered@loc.gov >>> F.Herbert@RGS.ORG 01/06/03 12:11PM >>> Lisa: Oh, dear - my 'peculiar' sense of homo[u]r didn't strike home with you: by no means was I confused, nor had I *any* intention of suggesting that the mosaic might be 'lifted'! Although Jerry Post might care to compile a list of such cartographic floor *and wall* mosaics in USA - might he? Francis f.herbert@rgs.org -----Original Message----- From: Lisa Davis Allen [mailto:lda_cud@msn.com] Sent: 06 January 2003 17:01 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Texas County floor map Francis no, no, no ... this is a large floor mosaic. I thought anyone researching mosaic maps might be interested in visiting the building and taking a look. Sorry for the confusion. Lisa >From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG >Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >Subject: RE: [MapHist] Texas County floor map >Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:21:51 -0000 > >Lisa: > >I doubt if the County Court authorities would be happy for you to "pass the >find on to anyone interested" - there are some very dubious dealers around >. >. . (or do you propose to do this at night in disguise?) > >Francis >f.herbert@rgs.org > >-----Original Message----- >From: Lisa Davis Allen [mailto:lda_cud@msn.com] >Sent: 06 January 2003 16:15 >To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >Subject: [MapHist] Texas County floor map > >To All >Just a bit of information for anyone interested. While on vacation I went >to > >the Waco County Court House (Waco, Texas). Inside I found a large mosaic >floor map of the county directly under the main dome. Although this is not >part of my research, I wanted to pass the find on to anyone interested. >Lisa > >Dr. Lisa Davis Allen >University of Colorado Denver >Department of Visual Arts >lda_cud@msn.com >ldavisal@carbon.cudenver.edu > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months >http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM: Try the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Strebe@aol.com Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:15:33 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] "Goodbye, Columbus!" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL For Mac OS X sub 25 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Michael Ross <michael.ross@clear.net.nz> writes:

As I read his posting, Mr. Mayer was raising the critical issue of
Euro-centrism. He rightly points out that we still claim that Columbus
"discovered" "America", knowing he was not the first European to visit those
shores...while denying the same claim to the "Indians" who travelled with
Columbus back to Europe!

Critical issue? For whom? Historians have never been confused about the perspective from which they write. Most of them remember the elation they felt at about age 12 when they first conceived of the thought that it was the Native Americans who discovered America, rather than Columbus... only to realize, at about age 13, that the word "discovered" did not mean what everyone around them seem to think it means.

I pull Morse's Geography (1792) off my bookshelf and read:

"It is believed by many, and not without some plausible foundation, that America was known to the Ancients. Of this, however, history affords no certain evidence. The Norwegians, the Welsh and the Germans, each in turn, have made pretensions to the discovery of America. As early as 874 the Norwegians discovered, and planted a colony, in Iceland; and in 982, they discovered, and made settlements in Greenland. Thence, some of their enterprising navigators, proceeded still further westward until they discovered a country, the coast of which was sandy, but the interior parts level and covered with wood, on which account they called it Helle-land and Mark-land, and having afterwards found some plants of the vine, which bore grapes, they called it Wine-land or Vine-land. But where this country lies historians are not agreed. If it was any part of the American coast, as it probably must have been, all attempts to plant colonies in it proved unsuccessful, and the knowledge was soon lost. [A footnote describes the history and evidence of these claims in some detail]

"The pretentions of the Welsh to the discovery of America, have but a slight foundation. In the 12 Century, according to Powell, a dispute having arisen among the sons of Owen Gwyneth, king of North-Wales... [etc.] ...He steered due west, leaving Ireland to the north, and arrived in an unknown country, which appeared to him desirable; he returned to Wales, and carried thither several of his adherents and companions. this is said to have taken place about the year 1170. He and his colony have not been heard of since.

"Some German authorities ascribe the honour of having discovered America, to Martin Behaim, their countryman. He descended from a noble family... [etc.] ...So far the story of Martin Behaim is well authenticated; but as to the accounts of his having discovered any part of the American coast, though credited by some ingenious men, they have too great an appearance of conjecture to gain general belief. [Another detailed footnote here.] For ought we can learn from authentic documents, the eastern continent ws the only theatre of history, the partial discoveries of the Norwegians excepted, from creation till the year of our Lord 1492; and Columbus has a fair claim to the honour of being the discoverer of the NEW WORLD."

<end of quote>

More than two centuries ago the facts were known nearly as well as they are now, and their historical perspectives were well understood. Yes, it is possible there were earlier voyages to the new world, but as Morse explains, none of them carried any lasting impact to any culture. The same would be true of any voyage by the Chinese admiral. Columbus's discovery, on the other hand, profoundly altered the course of history, both to the Europeans for whom his discovery was indeed a discovery, and for the aboriginal Americans, for whom it was not.

Morse writes to a European audience. His description of discovery is appropriate for that audience. If I were to pull out a telescope and "discover" a galaxy lying 600 million light years in a direction that had not been widely catalogued by "earthlings", would you begrudge the use of the term "discovery" just because that particular galaxy were already inhabited by trillions of sentient beings who knew perfectly well the existence of their own galaxy? I hope not. The "issue" of Eurocentrism is no issue; it's not new; and it's not only newly acknowledged amongst historians. It's just newly acknowledged amongst lay people who think of themselves as intellectual and who feel some need to atone for the alleged sins of their ancestors by admonishing lesser beings around them for their provincial views.

Thus we see Menzies leveraging a popular misconception about the meaning of discovery to further his own little agenda. Therein lies the problem. People like Menzies set up straw men for lay people and then knock them down, earning their millions through promotions to the gullible. If, by some miracle, it turns out that the Chinese admiral did reach America, why would that trump the achievements of the Vikings centuries earlier, forcing all the textbooks to be rewritten? Why? Well... because that's the way Menzies wants it. No more reason, no less.

Compounding the matter is the Euro-centric "evidence" approach. You stated:

> Mr. Mott is not concerned here with either Columbus or the results of
> Eurocentrism, but in large part with the lack of solid evidence for
> the Chinese circumnavigation thesis announced by Mr. Menzies.

What does "solid evidence" mean? European records/maps/portulans/texts? How
do we know there is not "solid evidence" in China?

If there is evidence in China then the burden falls upon the Chinese to deliver it. There is nothing to be gained by accepting such evidence before it is even purported to exist, much less before it is brought to light.

How do we know there is not "solid evidence" in Europe?...merely because we
have not yet found it?

Yes. And there is nothing to be gained by accepting such evidence before it is even purported to exist, much less before it is brought to light.

While we might feel distinctly uncomfortable with the huge linkage leaps Mr
Menzies makes, we cannot simply dismiss any new elements he may have
uncovered merely because they have not been revealed by a member of the
academic community.

Members of the academic community are all too familiar with Menzies methods and motives. As the Times article author points out, occasionally one of the cranks turns out to be right. Asking historians to suspend skepticism toward the thousands of cranks in between gains nothing in any search for truth.

Regards,
daan Strebe
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: DSloanRareBooks@aol.com Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:23:51 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] Texas County floor map To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In a message dated 1/6/2003 10:43:09 AM Central Standard Time, F.Herbert@RGS.ORG writes:


there are some very dubious dealers around


Hmmm.... What is meant by that?  Just curious.

 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: DSloanRareBooks@aol.com Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:26:55 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] Texas County floor map To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In a message dated 1/6/2003 12:13:08 PM Central Standard Time, ered@loc.gov writes:


I fear that this thread will soon be as big as Texas...


I sincerely hope not.  It is difficult enough being a native Texan without dealing with the myriad stereotypes that abound in other parts of the country and the world at large.

Dorothy Sloan<---double whammied, a Texan AND a female X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Rodney Shirley" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] chinese discoverers of America in 1/5/03 NYT Mag Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 21:34:00 -0000 Organization: UUNET X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Gavin Menzies `1421...' book was in my Christmas stocking (from my son)--and I must say that I have enjoyed reading it. It is not badly written with a lot of background notes and references, and reasonably well illustrated. I can recommended it -- providing one goes along with what Shelley (I think) said was `...a willing suspension of disbelief'. On all the notes and references, these sound impressive but need following up to make sure they say what Menzies implies. For instance, under the sub-heading `French exploration before Columbus' (pp.439-440) is listed Rotz's famous `Boke of Idrography' edited by Helen Wallis--a thorough and scholarly facsimile volume.But neither Rotz in the 1540s nor Helen Wallis in 1981 say anything at all about pre-Columbian French exploration. Et al. Rodney Shirley rws@dial,pipex.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip C. Brown" To: Sent: 05 January 2003 21:22 Subject: RE: [MapHist] chinese discoverers of America in 1/5/03 NYT Mag > People should note that this article on the Menzies book is > available on line: > http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/05/magazine/05MENZIES.html > > Philip Brown > > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: DSloanRareBooks@aol.com Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 17:06:43 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] chinese discoverers of America in 1/5/03 NYT Mag To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In a message dated 1/6/2003 3:46:51 PM Central Standard Time, rws@DIAL.PIPEX.COM writes:


a willing suspension of
disbelief'.


"That willing suspension of disbelief for the moment, which constitutes poetic faith" (Samuel Taylor Coleridge).




X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "V+R Mayer" To: Subject: [MapHist] More on "Goodbye, Columbus!" Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:34:16 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
 

I am surprised that nobody complained about my calling the natives of the Caribbean “Indians”, certainly a “not politically correct” expression in the US but this term was in use there for close to 500 years and still in use everywhere else in the American continent. The important fact is that that is what Columbus called them because he believed that he had reached the East Indies and was convinced of this to the end of his days.

I copy from the NYT article “Menzies said that although Waldseemüller had not seen America's West Coast with his own eyes, he had clearly benefited from seeing a Chinese ''master chart of the world.'' Nobody has ever seen this chart; Menzies just presumes that it existed…. By the time Columbus sailed, Menzies said, he had surely seen copies of this map -- and used it to guide his first voyage.”

Had Columbus seen such a map he would have known that there was a continent which would block his way to the Spice Islands, and he would have known where he was. Evidently he did not see the map Menzies presumes existed.

Roberto L. Mayer

 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 10:48:17 +0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [MapHist] "Goodbye, Columbus!" What about Welcome von Daniken? Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 At 04:15 AM 1/7/2003, you wrote: >Michael Ross writes: > >Members of the academic community are all too familiar with Menzies >methods and motives. As the Times article author points out, occasionally >one of the cranks turns out to be right. Asking historians to suspend >skepticism toward the thousands of cranks in between gains nothing in any >search for truth. Wasn't it Von Daniken who claimed that America was discovered and populated by Aliens? In fact, wasn't all the world populated by Aliens? His books were and still are enormously popular. I have read quite a few of them it's really a fascinating read and food for SF lovers it almost convinces you he's right. ;-) Henny (Lee Hae Kang) ----------------------------- Portal to all my sites http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Feel free to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) In Korean http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Dutch http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch Frits Vos Article about Witsen and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Korea through Western Cartographic eyes http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Hwasong the fortress in Suwon http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr The way a ship was rigged: http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/shiprigg.htm Old Korea in pictures http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan (1797) http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr Genealogy http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr Bulletin board for Korean studies http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/bboard _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Strebe@aol.com Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 22:13:06 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on "Goodbye, Columbus!" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10577 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 (J(B (J
Roberto L. Mayer <ryvmayer@internet.com.mx> writes:(B (J
(B (J
I am surprised that nobody complained about my calling the natives of the Caribbean "Indians", certainly a "not politically correct" expression in the US but this term was in use there for close to 500 years and still in use everywhere else in the American continent. The important fact is that that is what Columbus called them because he believed that he had reached the East Indies and was convinced of this to the end of his days.
(B (J
(B (J
I don't know that there's any useful point to trying to avoid the term "Indians". If you call them "native Americans", which seems to be the righteous euphemism these days, then you are still calling them by a European designation. That's unavoidable and possibly even preferable. What if Columbus had been "sensitive" to the culture of the first aboriginal American tribe he discovered? We might have wound up calling all American Indians by the name of an obscure tribe in the Caribbean (just which tribe would depend upon whose theory of landfall you subscribe to) or by a word in their language that means "The People" or somesuch. I'm guessing that would be less palatable to the surrounding tribes, at least, than "American Indian", which would be merely arbitrary and random to their ears rather than challenging and competitive. Since there was no single term in existence amongst the aboriginals to describe their collective selves or the lands they inhabited, the responsibility for inventing a term lay with those who invented the notion that they should be grouped into a collective. That would be the Europeans.(B (J
(B (J
These days in the United States people are so hopelessly befuddled that they use the term "Asians" to denote Mongoloid stock because "Orientals" turned sour somewhere along the line. I wonder how the Turks, Persians, Khazaks, Indians, Kurds, Arabians etc. feel about that. (Of course, "Orientals" originally referred pretty much to Persians, but by the 20th century it had come to refer unambiguously to those with Mongoloid features.)(B (J
(B (J
So, this (native but not Native) American is comfortable with "American Indian". The few Native (who are also native) Americans I have known are also comfortable with it... although only when collectively named; otherwise they prefer to be known by their tribal name. One Navajo roommate I had positively hated the term "Native American" because he thought it tendentiously exclusive; the other American Indians I have known didn't seem to care one way or the other. I find the Canadian designation "First Nations" to be a civilized choice when discussing the various groups collectively, though I'm not sure how to turn that into an adjective to apply to an individual.(B (J
(B (J
Regards,(B (J
daan Strebe(B (J
(B (J
(B X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 21:26:28 -0800 Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on "Goodbye, Columbus!" X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 From: Paul Boyd Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
As for the term Indian (as in American Indian), my deceased Lenape colleague James Lone Bear Revey used to say that if Columbus was looking for the East Indies and therefore called the first western hemisphere people he encountered "Indians," then he was happy that Columbus was not looking for Turkey. 
 
Seriously, does anyone else see the good balance and respect for origins provided by the matched set of terms: Euro American, Native American, African American, Asian American, etc.???
 
Finally, this note is as far off the track of this email group -- the map history track -- as are many of the other recent messages in this thread. Let's get back on track?
 
Paul Boyd 
 
 
On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 22:13:06 EST Strebe@aol.com writes:
(J(B (J
Roberto L. Mayer <ryvmayer@internet.com.mx> writes:(B (J
(B (J
I am surprised that nobody complained about my calling the natives of the Caribbean "Indians", certainly a "not politically correct" expression in the US but this term was in use there for close to 500 years and still in use everywhere else in the American continent. The important fact is that that is what Columbus called them because he believed that he had reached the East Indies and was convinced of this to the end of his days.
(B (J
(B (J
I don't know that there's any useful point to trying to avoid the term "Indians". If you call them "native Americans", which seems to be the righteous euphemism these days, then you are still calling them by a European designation. That's unavoidable and possibly even preferable. What if Columbus had been "sensitive" to the culture of the first aboriginal American tribe he discovered? We might have wound up calling all American Indians by the name of an obscure tribe in the Caribbean (just which tribe would depend upon whose theory of landfall you subscribe to) or by a word in their language that means "The People" or somesuch. I'm guessing that would be less palatable to the surrounding tribes, at least, than "American Indian", which would be merely arbitrary and random to their ears rather than challenging and competitive. Since there was no single term in existence amongst the aboriginals to describe their collective selves or the lands they inhabited, the responsibi! lity for inventing a term lay with those who invented the notion that they should be grouped into a collective. That would be the Europeans.(B (J
(B (J
These days in the United States people are so hopelessly befuddled that they use the term "Asians" to denote Mongoloid stock because "Orientals" turned sour somewhere along the line. I wonder how the Turks, Persians, Khazaks, Indians, Kurds, Arabians etc. feel about that. (Of course, "Orientals" originally referred pretty much to Persians, but by the 20th century it had come to refer unambiguously to those with Mongoloid features.)(B (J
(B (J
So, this (native but not Native) American is comfortable with "American Indian". The few Native (who are also native) Americans I have known are also comfortable with it... although only when collectively named; otherwise they prefer to be known by their tribal name. One Navajo roommate I had positively hated the term "Native American" because he thought it tendentiously exclusive; the other American Indians I have known didn't seem to care one way or the other. I find the Canadian designation "First Nations" to be a civilized choice when discussing the various groups collectively, though I'm not sure how to turn that into an adjective to apply to an individual.(B (J
(B (J
Regards,(B (J
daan Strebe(B (J
(B (J
(B
 
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: DSloanRareBooks@aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 00:40:43 EST Subject: [MapHist] DeCordova's 1854 map of Texas To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear Map History Forum:

Please accept my sincere apologies for allowing myself to be sidetracked from my original intention in checking with the map history forum today.  I am trying to locate other copies of the following map:

DE CORDOVA, Jacob.  J. De Cordova's Map of the State of Texas Compiled from the Records of the General Land Office of the State by Robert Creuzbaur, Houston, 1854.  54 x 57.2 cm.

This map is smaller in format than the other editions of De Cordova's important map of Texas, which first appeared in 1849 (see Martin & Martin, Maps of Texas and the Southwest Plate 39; Wheat, Mapping the Transmississippi West 603; Graff 920; Fifty Texas Rarities; Phillips, p. 844, etc.).  The other editions of De Cordova's map measure approximately 88.2 x 84 cm.  The map is genuine, not a later reduced facsimile.
This 1854 edition was the last published version of De Cordova's Texas map before he sold the rights to J. H. Colton.

I have not been able to locate any institutional holdings for the 1854 edition of the map.  I searched OCLC for the 1854 map, but found no copies.  RLIN (attributing the map to Robert Creuzbaur, rather than De Cordova) notes that Yale has a photocopy of the 1854 map made from the New York Public Library copy.  The Yale photocopy bears Thomas W. Streeter's notes.  I did not find the 1854 map on the NYPL web site.  Nor is the 1854 edition of the map at the Rumsey web site.  The map is not listed by James Day in his book on De Cordova, even though Day lists the various editions of De Cordova's map of Texas.  The 1854 map is not known to Natalie Ornish, the current expert on De Cordova.  The only other copy of this map that I can definitely locate is one in a private collection.  This 1854 edition does not appear to match any of the maps found in De Cordova's promotional pamphlets on Texas.

For more information on De Cordova, consult the Handbook of Texas Online: <http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/DD/fde3.html>  De Cordova is listed in the revised Tooley, but under Cordova, rather than De Cordova. 

Does anyone know of other copies of the 1854 edition of De Cordova's map of Texas?

Thanks,
Dorothy Sloan
X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Al Magary" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on "Goodbye, Columbus!" Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 22:06:40 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
Squib for the Salon review of the Menzies book:  "The Chinese discovered America!" http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2003/01/07/menzies
Or did they? A dubious new book offers an object lesson  in amateurish research, slapdash editing and publishing greed.
 
-
Al Magary
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 08:39:54 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on "Goodbye, Columbus!" Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from [baytext ] Roberto Meyer stated (about the term "indians": "... and still in use everywhere else in the American continent...." In English-speaking Canada the generally accepted term is "First Nations' people." Michael Layland _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 20:46:22 +1300 From: Michael Ross Subject: [MapHist] The Straw Man lives! To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 It has been enlightening to read the responses to my posting on the "Menzies Madness". The comments from fellow list members appear to resort to creating the straw man they could then demolish. An interesting academic approach. John Day wrote: > The term "discovered", much like "invented", must be considered in > terms of the social context of which discovery/invention had major > impact on its society. Indeed this is the sense in which we use it. That may be the very Euro-centric view I am questioning, but it is certainly not the view of other cultures (who make up the greater proportion of the world's population and knowledge). The Polynesian explorers, probably the world's greatest, did not have this view. In fact they referenced their voyaging to Hawaiki (the homeland they came from), not where they arrived. One could be forgiven for interpreting this definition as 'conquering'. Please tell me which explorer (Cook included) who claimed, or actually did have, a "major impact on its [discovered] society"? Not the culture that followed, for that is a very different matter indeed. And how would you measure that "impact"? Mr Day also states "It is not sufficient to discover something or invent something, if the word does not get out". Does that mean that discovery (or invention) is measured by the degree of publicity? If that is the case then you must surely award the prize for the last and current centuries to Mr. Menzies! In response to my statement "How do we know there is not "solid evidence" in Europe?...merely because we have not yet found it?", Mr Day informs us: "This is how scientific inquiry works when old information is challenged. It is the duty of everyone else to be sceptical and push for more proof." What 'old information' is he referring to? To resurrect an old truth, 'the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'! Mr Day's conclusion reflects his contribution. In response to my statement: "I, for one, intend to look a little more closely at the trees, and not become distracted by the apparent forest." he responds "Actually, I think the current problem with Menzies theory is too few trees to make a forest". The word 'apparent' means........? Dee Longenbaugh contributes: "Michael Ross, read below, takes the amateur-vs.-academia approach to the Menzies "discovery". I do hope he reads the NYT article before he champions the skilfully hyped book. San Francisco on the Waldseemuller globe? San Francisco Bay wasn't discovered until 1770. No thanks for inaccurately characterising my contribution. If that is the level of accuracy you think is acceptable for this debate, then no wonder it goes in circles! What evidence do you have that I am one of those who "champions the skilfully hyped book". In the absence of direct evidence then I suggest an apology to the list would be appropriate. And what characterises an "amateur" compared with "academia"? If someone holds an 'academic' position does that give them automatic credibility...or is that something that is earned, like any other recognition? Mr Longenbaugh continues: "It continue to amaze me that so many are eager for a little excitement in their lives, completely ignoring all the real mysteries that nearly all old maps contain. Of course it's fun to think of the doughty amateur confounding the scholars, but a reason scholars become such is, um, well, that they study the subject." Your attempted put-down reflects poorly on you Mr Longenbaugh. May I recommend you read Issue 53 of "The Globe" (in print). It contains a peer-reviewed paper that has been ten years in the research and writing. And it reports a 'discovery' that has been in front of 'academics' for 350 years, but completely ignored by them. I would be interested in your feedback. Mr daan Strebe writes: "Critical issue? For whom? Historians have never been confused about the perspective from which they write." That statement in itself is highly debatable, but accepting at face value, what does it tell us? That we must accept what we are told because it is from an historian? That what the historian might tell us is always correct, because they are clear and are not "confused"? I am looking for light, for truth...what are you looking for? Comfort? Further Mr Strebe states: "If there is evidence in China then the burden falls upon the Chinese to deliver it." Pardon me? How does that equate with the scientific methodology? "There is nothing to be gained by accepting such evidence before it is even purported to exist, much less before it is brought to light." (x2) I did not for one moment suggest the list "suspend skepticism". But I did suggest they "search for truth" in the claims that are made by the Menzies of this world. And Henny Savenije? Henny, I did not write the quote you attributed to me....Mr Strebe did! Sadly, I have a very uneasy feeling that there may be more light in Mr. Menzies claims than there was in any of the responses to my posting. And there is a prize of an Easter egg for the list member who can provide evidence of my acceptance or support of Mr. Menzies' contentions. Or does the egg rightfully belong to the list members I have responded to above. Kind Regards Michael _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: KitTheMap@aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 03:33:49 EST Subject: [MapHist] Native or not To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows DE sub 10501 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 It reminds me of European football: in my language classes I try hard to always say "The Netherlands" but when I visited an international match all the opposition supporters were wearing orange emblazoned "Holland"!

Kit X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Texas County floor map Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 09:20:38 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714

Surely you've been aware of map thefts in Europe and USA over the last decade?!

 

f.herbert@rgs.org

 

-----Original Message-----
From: DSloanRareBooks@aol.com [mailto:DSloanRareBooks@aol.com]
Sent: 06 January 2003 19:24
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Texas County floor map

 

In a message dated 1/6/2003 10:43:09 AM Central Standard Time, F.Herbert@RGS.ORG writes:



there are some very dubious dealers around



Hmmm.... What is meant by that?  Just curious.

 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 18:27:13 +0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [MapHist] The Straw Man lives! Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 At 04:46 PM 1/7/2003, you wrote: >And Henny Savenije? > >Henny, I did not write the quote you attributed to me....Mr Strebe did! Actually there were two sentences At 04:15 AM 1/7/2003, you wrote: >Michael Ross writes: That means I did indeed comment on Mr. Strebe, since the first line refers to his post. >Sadly, I have a very uneasy feeling that there may be more light in Mr. >Menzies claims than there was in any of the responses to my posting. In that case I guess everybody would be delighted to see a bit more on what he wrote, I for one, don't dismiss his claims but I also have Erich von Daniken in mind, I have not read the book, and if I ever have the chance I will certainly buy and read it as I did with von Daniken books. And don't great things come from debating things, doubting things etc? I would certainly love to see that Menzies is right, because it sheds a new light on the East West relations in the past, Henny (Lee Hae Kang) ----------------------------- Portal to all my sites http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Feel free to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) In Korean http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Dutch http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch Frits Vos Article about Witsen and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Korea through Western Cartographic eyes http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Hwasong the fortress in Suwon http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr The way a ship was rigged: http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/shiprigg.htm Old Korea in pictures http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan (1797) http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr Genealogy http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr Bulletin board for Korean studies http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/bboard _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 18:55:45 +0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [MapHist] Native or not Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 At 05:33 PM 1/7/2003, you wrote: >It reminds me of European football: in my language classes I try hard to >always say "The Netherlands" but when I visited an international match all >the opposition supporters were wearing orange emblazoned "Holland"! we got that back from the British and our own history, ;-) Henny (Lee Hae Kang) ----------------------------- Portal to all my sites http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Feel free to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) In Korean http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Dutch http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch Frits Vos Article about Witsen and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Korea through Western Cartographic eyes http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Hwasong the fortress in Suwon http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr The way a ship was rigged: http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/shiprigg.htm Old Korea in pictures http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan (1797) http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr Genealogy http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr Bulletin board for Korean studies http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/bboard _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 08:13:12 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: Re: [MapHist] DeCordova's 1854 map of Texas Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 At 12:40 AM 1/7/2003 -0500, you wrote:
Does anyone know of other copies of the 1854 edition of De Cordova's map of Texas?

A copy of the Creuzbaur map is listed in a 2002 catalogue from Donald Heald at: <http://www.donaldheald.com/maps/maps_list_01.php?cat=North%20America>. The size measurements do not conform with those posted, but perhaps that relates simply to an issue of sheet  v. image size. You referred to a copy in a private collection, so perhaps you already know of this one.

                   Joel

 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 08:16:15 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: [MapHist] de Cordova map- Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Please excuse my last posting. It turns out that was an 1861 issue by Colton, and NOT the one Dorothy Sloan had queried. Joel _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-WebMail-UserID: lesleyp Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 06:30:46 -0700 From: lesleyp To: maphist X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00003228 Subject: [MapHist] Canadian terminology X-Mailer: WebMail (Hydra) SMTP v3.61.08 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I find the Canadian designation "First Nations" to be a >civilized choice when discussing the various groups collectively, though I'm >not sure how to turn that into an adjective to apply to an individual. > >Regards, >daan Strebe The (one?) term of choice here in Canada for an individual is "aboriginal." It's often used collectively too. It can be taken to include the Inuit as well, who are, as I understand it, a distinct people, not (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) considered to be among the First Nations. Oops--I think "Inuit" is not the most appropriate term for our northern aboriginal peoples, though--apologies for that. Lesley Peterson Lesley Peterson PhD Candidate (English) University of Alberta Edmonton, Canada He came after Homer and before Gertrude Stein, a difficult interval for a poet. --Anne Carson _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: DSloanRareBooks@aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 08:34:17 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] Texas County floor map To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In a message dated 1/7/2003 3:38:20 AM Central Standard Time, F.Herbert@RGS.ORG writes:


Surely you've been aware of map thefts in Europe and USA over the last decade?!

f.herbert@rgs.org



More than I care to relate, to say nothing of the forgeries and fabrications.  Many honest, ethical dealers, auction houses, librarians, collectors, and curators have had to deal with the aftermath.

There are dubious persons in all professions, sad to say.

I would write more, but I am on my way to Waco with a chisel...to scout.

:) X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: krogt@pop.geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 15:10:09 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: Re: [MapHist] de Cordova map- Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from [Tim ] No, it is right page but wrong notation. The 1854 map is listed below the 1861 Colton. See: http://tinyurl.com/4652 Tim Tim Williams Maps & Prints 623 High St. Boonville, MO 65233-1212 Joel Kovarsky wrote: > Please excuse my last posting. It turns out that was an 1861 issue by > Colton, and NOT the one Dorothy Sloan had queried. > > Joel > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl -- _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Garman Harbottle" To: Subject: [MapHist] Menzies' 1421 Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 11:14:46 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam (whitelisted), SpamAssassin (score=0.8, required 5, AWL, SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, SUPERLONG_LINE, USER_AGENT_OE) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
I have been reading with some interest the comments of the members of "maphist" on the revelation of Chinese contacts with the New World. Finally, I read the Hitt piece in the NYTimes.
 
Fortunately there is a book which is an excellent scholarly compendium of much of this material, see for example the chickens, in  chapter 9 "Pre-Columbian Chickens in America" by George F. Carter, who was Distinguished Professor of Geography at Texas A & M. The earliest reference to the chickens is in 1590.  The book is entitled ""Man Across the Sea: Problems of pre-Columbian Contacts", Eds. Riley, Kelley, Pennington and Rands.  University of Texas Press (1971).  ISBN 0-292-70117-9  All were professional archaeologists of note, as were many of the contributors.I recommend this book highly: it came from a symposium of the Society for American Archaeology.
 
The data and refs assembled there are interesting, and a belief in pre-Columbian contacts coming from Asia need not depend on whether the 1421 voyage got to the Golden Gate or not.  There is actually a good bit of evidence coming from serious studies and it all makes interesting reading.
 
Garman Harbottle
 
 
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "van der heijden" To: Subject: [MapHist] Allgemeine Welthistorie Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 17:26:26 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714

Gibt es jemand der mir Exemplare mit Code-Nummern nennen kann folgender Ausgabe, und vor allem des Bandes 34 ?

Sigmund Jakob Baumgarten e.a., Allgemeine Welt-historie von Anbegin der Welt bisz auf gegenwaertige Zeit - Halle: Johann Justinus Gebauer, 1744-1791, 100 vols[Vol. 34].

Herzlichen Dank

Henk van der Heijden

 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "George S. Carhart" Organization: University of Southern Maine To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 11:42:38 -0500 Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on "Goodbye, Columbus!" X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id RAA22364 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 The concept that the Waldseemüller world map shows evidence of knowledge of the west coast of South, Central and North America is flawed. This idea is based on the mountains that Walseemüller depicted along the western edge of these lands, and that they show therefore knowledge of the west coast of the Americas. This idea is flawed for two reasons: First: there are mountain ranges that can be seen from the East Coast of South America, starting with the Patagonian mountains in Argentina, then the Serra do Mar and Serra do Espinhace in Brazil and then the mountains in north western and south eastern Venezuela. In Central America the eastern flank of the mountains that run from Columbia into Mexico. In Mexico the Eastern Sierra and in North America the Appalachian mountans. Secondly: if the description that Waldseemüller worked from had described mountains seen from the west then it is more than likely these mountains would have been depicted on the map in profile as seen from the west and not from the east as they are on the map. I feel that Waldseemüller had information about the eastern mountains as seen from the east and therefore depicted these mountains from the east. As he had no information about the west coast of the Americas he left it blank and undefined. George On 6 Jan 2003, at 19:34, V+R Mayer wrote:  I am surprised that nobody complained about my calling the natives of the Caribbean Indians, certainly a not politically correct expression in the US but this term was in use there for close to 500 years and still in use everywhere else in the American continent. The important fact is that that is what Columbus called them because he believed that he had reached the East Indies and was convinced of this to the end of his days. I copy from the NYT article Menzies said that although Waldseemüller had not seen America's West Coast with his own eyes, he had clearly benefited from seeing a Chinese ''master chart of the world.'' Nobody has ever seen this chart; Menzies just presumes that it existed&. By the time Columbus sailed, Menzies said, he had surely seen copies of this map -- and used it to guide his first voyage. Had Columbus seen such a map he would have known that there was a continent which would block his way to the Spice Islands, and he would have known where he was. Evidently he did not see the map Menzies presumes existed. Roberto L. Mayer George S. Carhart Cartographic Associate Osher Map Library Smith Center for Cartographic Education University of Southern Maine P.O. Box 9301 Portland, Maine 04104-9301 USA (207) 780-4910 gcarhart@usm.maine.edu _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: cobb@pop.fas.harvard.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 13:12:56 -0500 To: maps-l@listserv.uga.edu, maphist@geog.uu.nl From: David Cobb Subject: [MapHist] ICHC 2003 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Colleagues - Printed registration materials for the 2003 International Conference on the History of Cartography are available by contacting info@2003.org and/or by requesting materials from the address below. With a deadline of February 15, 2003 persons are encouraged to contact the organizers if they should have any questions. Registration information is also available on the conference website: www.ichc2003.org. Also listed there are the planned social events, exhibits, conference hotels, meeting venues, and registration forms in PDF format. Please pass this information along to any colleagues that you believe would be interested. David Cobb *************************************************************************** David A. Cobb Tel. 617.495.2417 Harvard Map Collection FAX 617.496.0440 Harvard College Library Email: cobb@fas.harvard.edu Cambridge, MA 02138 HTTP://hcl.harvard.edu/maps ************************** VERITAS **************************************** _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 10:13:47 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Lester Subject: Re: [MapHist] de Cordova map- To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Joel, Dorothy, and other interested parties, I think both are there, one must scroll down below the 1861 (Colton issue) to get to the 1854 example. Excellent reference info. provided by Donald Heald. Regards, Jay > Please excuse my last posting. It turns out that was an 1861 issue by > > Colton, and NOT the one Dorothy Sloan had queried. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 13:41:02 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: Re: [MapHist] The Straw Man lives! Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 >It has been enlightening to read the responses to my posting on the "Menzies >Madness". The comments from fellow list members appear to resort to creating >the straw man they could then demolish. An interesting academic approach. > >John Day wrote: > > > The term "discovered", much like "invented", must be considered in > > terms of the social context of which discovery/invention had major > > impact on its society. Indeed this is the sense in which we use it. > >That may be the very Euro-centric view I am questioning, but it is certainly >not the view of other cultures (who make up the greater proportion of the >world's population and knowledge). The Polynesian explorers, probably the >world's greatest, did not have this view. In fact they referenced their >voyaging to Hawaiki (the homeland they came from), not where they arrived. I am confused by your point. This seems to support precisely the point I was trying to make. The impact of discovery on the where they came from, not where they were going. All of these pre-Columbian discoverers of the New World, either kept it a secret, never came back, or if they did spread the word on their return it did not spread far or the society wasn't really ready for it. Granted Europe had an almost cancerous attitude toward resources whereas, the Polynesians and others were much more resource neutral. But there is also considerable evidence that earlier discoveries of the New World fell on deaf ears. Europe was just not ready to hear it. Maybe it was simply that gold got more attention than fish. Also we should not confuse "discover" with "immigrate". > >One could be forgiven for interpreting this definition as 'conquering'. >Please tell me which explorer (Cook included) who claimed, or actually did >have, a "major impact on its [discovered] society"? Not the culture that >followed, for that is a very different matter indeed. And how would you >measure that "impact"? I was not interested in the impact on the discovered society, but the discovering! But now that you mention it seems there were major impacts on all New World societies by being discovered and the Pacific ones to including Cook. Even the small settlements here in New England had a major impact on the balance of power in the region. Not to mention the impact of the diseases and trade goods on the local social structure. >Mr Day also states "It is not sufficient to discover something or invent >something, if the word does not get out". Does that mean that discovery (or >invention) is measured by the degree of publicity? If that is the case then >you must surely award the prize for the last and current centuries to Mr. >Menzies! > >In response to my statement "How do we know there is not "solid evidence" in >Europe?...merely because we have not yet found it?", Mr Day informs us: > >"This is how scientific inquiry works when old information is challenged. It >is the duty of everyone else to be sceptical and push for more proof." > >What 'old information' is he referring to? To resurrect an old truth, 'the >absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'! The "old information" I was referring to was the "current theory". Science does not rule out the absence of evidence, but it does not waste time worrying about all of the theories for which there might be evidence. Even when new evidence challenges existing theory, a rather high bar is set to overthrow the existing theory. While I seldom like it, this is probably necessary to ensure that we do not rush to judgement. >Mr Day's conclusion reflects his contribution. In response to my statement: > >"I, for one, intend to look a little more closely at the trees, and not >become distracted by the apparent forest." > >he responds > >"Actually, I think the current problem with Menzies theory is too few trees >to make a forest". > >The word 'apparent' means........? Take care, John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: shkurkin@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 12:26:18 -0800 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Vlad Shkurkin Subject: [MapHist] Terminology Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I noticed that the term Amerind was not mentioned in the recent thread. Is this an accidental omission, or a matter of being replaced by more specific nomenclature?

Cheers,

Vlad Shkurkin
6025 Rose Arbor Ave
San Pablo CA 94806-4147
http://www.utahice.com/articles.htm X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:53:47 +0000 From: Doug Weller X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62 Christmas Edition) Personal To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] chinese discoverers of America in 1/5/03 NYT Mag Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Hi Francis, Monday, January 6, 2003, 11:54:29 AM, you wrote: > This may be an appropriate place to mention that the Menzies book is now > available at GBP9.99 at branches of the book-selling chain Waterstones on > this side of the Pond. Thanks, at that price I might buy it. Of course, I'll miss all the additional 'evidence' that will be in the US version... Doug -- Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated Submissions to:sci-archaeology-moderated@medieval.org Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:58:11 +0000 From: Doug Weller X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62 Christmas Edition) Personal To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Salon.com review on Menzie's' book Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2003/01/07/menzies/ The Chinese discovered America Or did they? A dubious new book offers an object lesson in amateurish research, slapdash editing and publishing greed. - - - - - - - - - - - - By Natalie Danford -- Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated Submissions to:sci-archaeology-moderated@medieval.org Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Rodney Shirley" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] chinese discoverers of America in 1/5/03 NYT Mag Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 21:37:49 -0000 Organization: UUNET X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714

 
 
Dorothy Sloan...
 
Thank you--what a wonderfully educative medium the Internet is!
 
Rodney Shirley
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 06 January 2003 22:06
Subject: Re: [MapHist] chinese discoverers of America in 1/5/03 NYT Mag

In a message dated 1/6/2003 3:46:51 PM Central Standard Time, rws@DIAL.PIPEX.COM writes:


a willing suspension of
disbelief'.


"That willing suspension of disbelief for the moment, which constitutes poetic faith" (Samuel Taylor Coleridge).

 

 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 16:39:58 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: [MapHist] Ethnohistory and Terminology Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Rather a large topic, but this link seems to outline some of the problems discussed today:  <http://www.uapress.arizona.edu/samples/sam1208.htm>. Paragraph 5 touches on much of the discussion. I'm sure an enormous bibliography is feasible. I am not promoting the referenced book. The book (The Emporer's Mirror) does, however, have a section on the visual interpretation of artifacts, including maps.        

                Joel Kovarsky. X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 18:06:55 -0500 From: Bert Johnson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] The Straw Man lives! Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 > > >To resurrect an old truth, 'the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'! > Forgive me, but every time I hear this "old truth" resurrected, it is used to defend a theory for which there is no confirmed evidence except for the advocate's conjectural (and possibly wishful) thinking. The fact is that while the absence of evidence may not be evidence of absence, it is certainly absence of evidence. That is to say, no evidence. Nada. Period. If we accept this "old truth" as the basis for any theory, should it not open the door to the prospect that America was first settled by a species of highly intelligent gerbils who were the real architects of the pyramids of Central America, which later people merely restored for their own use? Their tiny skeletal remains are found throughout the continent, after all. There is no evidence of this, of course, but the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Make no mistake: I am not in the least precluding the possibility that the Chinese visited North America before Columbus (or for that matter, after Columbus) without a record of the visit surviving to our day. And I certainly defend Mr. Menzies' right to advocate and explore this possibility. But that is hardly reason to accept as fact that they did so, lock, stock, and barrel. If all we need is a good story, we can surely top this one (and even the gerbils). A bit of evidence does a body good. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Charles Burroughs" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Anti-Gallican Society Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 18:54:46 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714

For what it’s worth, save your $635.89 and check out GALLICANISM in the 1929 Encyclopedia Britannica and find:

 

“ a name for various theories maintaining that both church and the state in France had ecclesiastical rights of their own, independent and exclusive of the jurisdiction of the pope. - - - Gallicanism goes back to the protests raised against the theocratic pretensions of the medieval popes. - - - Gallicanism answered that kings held their power directly to God; hence their temporal  concerns lay altogether outside the jurisdiction of the pope. - - - “  [c 1682]

 

It is easy enough to apply the “anti” moniker to all of this.  Now what all of this has to do with maps is a mystery to me.  Perhaps there were “Gallican” maps and “Anti-Gallican” maps.

 

Charles @ Stepladder

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl]On Behalf Of Joel Kovarsky
Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 2:18 PM
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Anti-Gallican Society

 

At 05:04 PM 1/3/2003 -0500, you wrote:

I am looking for information about a Society of Anti-Gallicans



I don't know if this is relevant, but I copied it off ABE. If so, maybe a library can track some of this:

The Anti-Gallican: THE ANTI-GALLICAN or Standard of British Loyalty, Religion and Liberty London Vernor and Hood 1804. including a Collection of the Principal Papers,Tracts, Speeches, Poems and Songs, That Have Been Published on the Threatened Invasion: Together with many Original Pieces. Volume Numbers 1 - 12 (all published) Newly bound in red cloth, gilt. 496pp + iv index. continuously paged. Folding, hand coloured frontispiece, untrimmed, entitled "The Upshot of the Invasion, or Bony in a fair way for Davey's Locker" A second hand coloured folding plate, entitled "O My Johnny "etc. and a third folding plate, uncoloured , captioned "John Bull Transported,; or the Case Altered" Some offsetting from the plates, otherwise text is clean throughout, and the plates are Fine. The final 4pp of free e/papers have neatly added in ink, several patriotic songs and hymns, by the Rev. Owen. Loosley inserted is a 4 page folded sheet of notepaper, with more handwritten verses by Rev. Owen. A nice clean set of a very scarce publication. Bookseller Inventory #1743 Price: US$ 635.89 (Convert Currency) Bookseller: Reg Bladen, Shropshire, SAL, United Kingdom


                   Joel Kovarsky

 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: deelong@mail.gci.net Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 18:02:06 -0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [MapHist] The Straw Man lives! Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 > >Dee Longenbaugh contributes: > >"Michael Ross, read below, takes the amateur-vs.-academia approach to the >Menzies "discovery". I do hope he reads the NYT article before he champions >the skilfully hyped book. San Francisco on the Waldseemuller globe? San >Francisco Bay wasn't discovered until 1770. > >No thanks for inaccurately characterising my contribution. If that is the >level of accuracy you think is acceptable for this debate, then no wonder it >goes in circles! Dee: Would you care to explain clearly, then, exactly what you meant? That applies to your question below as well. > >What evidence do you have that I am one of those who "champions the >skilfully hyped book". In the absence of direct evidence then I suggest an >apology to the list would be appropriate. > >And what characterises an "amateur" compared with "academia"? If someone >holds an 'academic' position does that give them automatic credibility...or >is that something that is earned, like any other recogniti > >May I recommend you read Issue 53 of "The Globe" (in print). It contains a >peer-reviewed paper that has been ten years in the research and writing. And >it reports a 'discovery' that has been in front of 'academics' for 350 >years, but completely ignored by them. I would be interested in your >feedback. Dee: Would you like to (briefly) explain your work, if it pertains to maps? Please contact me off-list. Thank you. > > -- The Observatory,ABAA 200 North Franklin Juneau, Alaska 99801 deelong@alaska.com http://www.observatorybooks.com Our 25th Year _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 08:30:42 +0100 From: Dominik Hunger Subject: Re: [MapHist] Allgemeine Welthistorie X-Sender: hunger@igor.urz.unibas.ch To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Was meinen Sie mit Code-Nummern?

Freundliche Gruesse

Dominik Hunger
University Library
University of Basle
Dpt. of Manuscripts and Old Prints




At 17:26 07.01.03 +0100, you wrote:

Gibt es jemand der mir Exemplare mit Code-Nummern nennen kann folgender Ausgabe, und vor allem des Bandes 34 ?

Sigmund Jakob Baumgarten e.a., Allgemeine Welt-historie von Anbegin der Welt bisz auf gegenwaertige Zeit - Halle: Johann Justinus Gebauer, 1744-1791, 100 vols[Vol. 34].

Herzlichen Dank

Henk van der Heijden
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.0.2 Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 09:39:05 +0100 From: "Theodor Bauer" To: Subject: Antw: [MapHist] Allgemeine Welthistorie Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Lieber Herr van der Heijden: das Werk ist in der Bayerischen Staatsbibliothek vorhanden: Im folgenden die Titelaufnahme: Uebersetzung der Algemeinen Welthistorie die in Engeland durch eine Geselschaft von Gelehrten ausgefertiget worden : Nebst den Anmerkungen der holländischen Uebersetzung auch vielen neuen Kupfern und Karten Halle : Gebauer EST: *An* universal history from the earliest account of time to the present . - NT: Algemeine Welthistorie. - Bd. 19 - 54 mit dem Nebent.: Historie Der Neuern Zeiten; mit der Nebenzählung: 1 - 36. - Abweichender Sacht. ab Bd. 31: Fortsetzung der Algemeinen Welthistorie durch eine Geselschaft von Gelehrten in Teutschland und Engeland ausgefertiget 34 Mit einer Vorrede begleitet von Johann Christoph Gatterer der Geschichte ordentl. Lehrer zu Göttingen, ... 1770. - [1] Bl., 20 S., 720 S., [3] Bl. : Ill., Kt. Magazinsign. Bibl.Mont. 1567-34 Theo Bauer >>> h.a.vander.heijden@12move.nl 07.01.03 17:26:26 >>> Gibt es jemand der mir Exemplare mit Code-Nummern nennen kann folgender Ausgabe, und vor allem des Bandes 34 ? Sigmund Jakob Baumgarten e.a., Allgemeine Welt-historie von Anbegin der Welt bisz auf gegenwaertige Zeit - Halle: Johann Justinus Gebauer, 1744-1791, 100 vols[Vol. 34]. Herzlichen Dank Henk van der Heijden _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "van der heijden" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Allgemeine Welthistorie Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 11:21:21 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
den Herrn Hunger,Ritter, Bauer
Herzlichen dank für Ihre freundliche Hilfe. Mit Code-Nummern meine ic Magazinsignatur. Die von BSB weiss ich jetzt. Kennen Sie die Signatur von Band 34 in Augsburg ?
Henk
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Allgemeine Welthistorie

Was meinen Sie mit Code-Nummern?

Freundliche Gruesse

Dominik Hunger
University Library
University of Basle
Dpt. of Manuscripts and Old Prints




At 17:26 07.01.03 +0100, you wrote:

Gibt es jemand der mir Exemplare mit Code-Nummern nennen kann folgender Ausgabe, und vor allem des Bandes 34 ?

Sigmund Jakob Baumgarten e.a., Allgemeine Welt-historie von Anbegin der Welt bisz auf gegenwaertige Zeit - Halle: Johann Justinus Gebauer, 1744-1791, 100 vols[Vol. 34].

Herzlichen Dank

Henk van der Heijden
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 11:32:34 +0100 From: Matthias Miller Organization: UB Heidelberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Allgemeine Welthistorie Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Die Signatur von Bd. 34 in Augsburg lautet: Standort: Oett.-Wallerstein-Bibl. Signatur: 02/IV.11.4.31-34 Mit freundlichen Grüßen Matthias Miller -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Matthias Miller M.A. Universitätsbibliothek Heidelberg - Heidelberg University Library Handschriftenabteilung - Manuscript Department DFG-Projekt Codices Palatini germanici Ploeck 107-109, D-69117 Heidelberg Tel.: ++49 (0) 6221 54 2592 Mail: miller@ub.uni-heidelberg.de _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Originating-IP: [131.211.208.153] From: "Robert Braeken" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] The Straw Man lives! Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 12:23:29 +0100 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jan 2003 11:23:30.0101 (UTC) FILETIME=[5EFC4E50:01C2B708] Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 mr. Ross, you wrote : "other cultures (who make up the greater proportion of the world's population and knowledge). " Now how do you measure that "greater proportion of knowledge" ? If your statement is not a scientifically established fact, it can be nothing more than your private opinion. Since the difference between established facts and wishful thinking is at the heart of the matter in this discussion, I think this reflects poorly on your position in it. Robert Braeken >From: Michael Ross >Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >Subject: [MapHist] The Straw Man lives! >Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 20:46:22 +1300 > >It has been enlightening to read the responses to my posting on the >"Menzies >Madness". The comments from fellow list members appear to resort to >creating >the straw man they could then demolish. An interesting academic approach. > >John Day wrote: > > > The term "discovered", much like "invented", must be considered in > > terms of the social context of which discovery/invention had major > > impact on its society. Indeed this is the sense in which we use it. > >That may be the very Euro-centric view I am questioning, but it is >certainly >not the view of other cultures (who make up the greater proportion of the >world's population and knowledge). The Polynesian explorers, probably the >world's greatest, did not have this view. In fact they referenced their >voyaging to Hawaiki (the homeland they came from), not where they arrived. > >One could be forgiven for interpreting this definition as 'conquering'. >Please tell me which explorer (Cook included) who claimed, or actually did >have, a "major impact on its [discovered] society"? Not the culture that >followed, for that is a very different matter indeed. And how would you >measure that "impact"? > >Mr Day also states "It is not sufficient to discover something or invent >something, if the word does not get out". Does that mean that discovery (or >invention) is measured by the degree of publicity? If that is the case then >you must surely award the prize for the last and current centuries to Mr. >Menzies! > >In response to my statement "How do we know there is not "solid evidence" >in >Europe?...merely because we have not yet found it?", Mr Day informs us: > >"This is how scientific inquiry works when old information is challenged. >It >is the duty of everyone else to be sceptical and push for more proof." > >What 'old information' is he referring to? To resurrect an old truth, 'the >absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'! > >Mr Day's conclusion reflects his contribution. In response to my statement: > >"I, for one, intend to look a little more closely at the trees, and not >become distracted by the apparent forest." > >he responds > >"Actually, I think the current problem with Menzies theory is too few trees >to make a forest". > >The word 'apparent' means........? > > >Dee Longenbaugh contributes: > >"Michael Ross, read below, takes the amateur-vs.-academia approach to the >Menzies "discovery". I do hope he reads the NYT article before he champions >the skilfully hyped book. San Francisco on the Waldseemuller globe? San >Francisco Bay wasn't discovered until 1770. > >No thanks for inaccurately characterising my contribution. If that is the >level of accuracy you think is acceptable for this debate, then no wonder >it >goes in circles! > >What evidence do you have that I am one of those who "champions the >skilfully hyped book". In the absence of direct evidence then I suggest an >apology to the list would be appropriate. > >And what characterises an "amateur" compared with "academia"? If someone >holds an 'academic' position does that give them automatic credibility...or >is that something that is earned, like any other recognition? > >Mr Longenbaugh continues: > >"It continue to amaze me that so many are eager for a little excitement in >their lives, completely ignoring all the real mysteries that nearly all old >maps contain. Of course it's fun to think of the doughty amateur >confounding >the scholars, but a reason scholars become such is, um, well, that they >study the subject." > >Your attempted put-down reflects poorly on you Mr Longenbaugh. > >May I recommend you read Issue 53 of "The Globe" (in print). It contains a >peer-reviewed paper that has been ten years in the research and writing. >And >it reports a 'discovery' that has been in front of 'academics' for 350 >years, but completely ignored by them. I would be interested in your >feedback. > > >Mr daan Strebe writes: > >"Critical issue? For whom? Historians have never been confused about the >perspective from which they write." > >That statement in itself is highly debatable, but accepting at face value, >what does it tell us? That we must accept what we are told because it is >from an historian? That what the historian might tell us is always correct, >because they are clear and are not "confused"? > >I am looking for light, for truth...what are you looking for? Comfort? > >Further Mr Strebe states: > >"If there is evidence in China then the burden falls upon the Chinese to >deliver it." > >Pardon me? How does that equate with the scientific methodology? > >"There is nothing to be gained by accepting such evidence before it is even >purported to exist, much less before it is brought to light." (x2) > >I did not for one moment suggest the list "suspend skepticism". But I did >suggest they "search for truth" in the claims that are made by the Menzies >of this world. > >And Henny Savenije? > >Henny, I did not write the quote you attributed to me....Mr Strebe did! > >Sadly, I have a very uneasy feeling that there may be more light in Mr. >Menzies claims than there was in any of the responses to my posting. > >And there is a prize of an Easter egg for the list member who can provide >evidence of my acceptance or support of Mr. Menzies' contentions. Or does >the egg rightfully belong to the list members I have responded to above. > >Kind Regards > >Michael > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _________________________________________________________________ Ontvang je Hotmail & Messenger berichten op je mobiele telefoon met Hotmail SMS http://www.msn.nl/jumppage/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.0.2 Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 14:17:19 +0100 From: "Theodor Bauer" To: Subject: Antw: Re: [MapHist] Allgemeine Welthistorie Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Lieber Herr van der Heijden, der Band ist (außer in der BSB dort übrigens 2. Exemplar in der Handschriftenabteilung: Res/4 H.un. 9-34) noch in folgenden bayerischen Bibliotheken (nachfolgend mit den Signaturen angegeben) vorhanden: 008 UB Augsburg (384) 0001 Standort/Signatur 02/IV.11.4.31-34 017 UB Bayreuth (703) 0001 Standort/Signatur 20/N S472 A4-34 027 UB Eichstätt (824) 0001 Standort/Signatur 04/1 P I 113 041 UB München (19) 0002 Standort/Signatur 0001/4 Hist. 228(34 0001/8 Döll. 2063(33/36 069 UB Regensburg (355) 0001 SB Regensburg (155) 0002 Standort/Signatur 20/N375370-33/34#34 999/4Hist.pol.468(34 999/Hist.pol.1,215(34 mit freundlichen Grüßen Theo Bauer >>> h.a.vander.heijden@12move.nl 08.01.03 11:21:21 >>> den Herrn Hunger,Ritter, Bauer Herzlichen dank für Ihre freundliche Hilfe. Mit Code-Nummern meine ic Magazinsignatur. Die von BSB weiss ich jetzt. Kennen Sie die Signatur von Band 34 in Augsburg ? Henk ----- Original Message ----- From: Dominik Hunger To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:30 AM Subject: Re: [MapHist] Allgemeine Welthistorie Was meinen Sie mit Code-Nummern? Freundliche Gruesse Dominik Hunger University Library University of Basle Dpt. of Manuscripts and Old Prints At 17:26 07.01.03 +0100, you wrote: Gibt es jemand der mir Exemplare mit Code-Nummern nennen kann folgender Ausgabe, und vor allem des Bandes 34 ? Sigmund Jakob Baumgarten e.a., Allgemeine Welt-historie von Anbegin der Welt bisz auf gegenwaertige Zeit - Halle: Johann Justinus Gebauer, 1744-1791, 100 vols[Vol. 34]. Herzlichen Dank Henk van der Heijden _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "J.B. Post" To: Subject: [MapHist] Gallicanism Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 08:29:43 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
   Yes, "Gallicanism" was (is?) the view that the national church of France could be Catholic yet French with local autonomy in the selection of high officials.  You might say "Anglicanism with a connection to Rome."  But just as England was called "Albion," talking fancy about France and the French could produce "Anti-Gallicanism" as meaning opposition to France and its policies and aims.  The Church connection is a dead end, I think, for this discussion.
 
         J. B. Post
 
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "tony campbell" To: "*History of Geography" , "*Lismaps" , "*MapHist" , "*Maps-L" , "*Liber-GdC" Subject: [MapHist] History of Cartography Fellowships announced Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 14:41:41 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 ANNOUNCING THE TENTH SERIES OF J B HARLEY RESEARCH FELLOWSHIPS IN THE HISTORY OF CARTOGRAPHY The Trustees of the J B Harley Research Fellowships Trust Fund are pleased to announce the tenth series of awards, offering support at a rate of £250 (sterling) per week. The fellowships are designed to assist research in the London map collections:- Guenièvre Fournier (Ecole des Hautes Etudes en Sciences Sociales, Marseilles, France) 'Views and maps of Marseilles, Genoa and Barcelona (15th-19th centuries)' (3 weeks) Anthony Mullan (Library of Congress, Humanities and Social Sciences Division, Washington, D.C., U.S.A.) ' "The Post-Road from Buenos Ayres to Potosi 1816": the close relationship of a map to travel literature and visual culture' (2 weeks) Professor Karl Offen (University of Oklahoma, Department of Geography, U.S.A.) 'Mapping Mosquitia: Miskitu identity and the geographical imagination in Northeastern Nicaragua' (3 weeks) 12 submissions were received this time. For details of past awards, numbers of applicants, and extracts from previous Fellows' reports, see:- < http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps/harlflws.html > [part of the 'Map History' gateway site] For information about applying for a Fellowship (closing date 1st November) please e-mail or write (preferably saying where you saw this notice) to:- Tony Campbell, Hon. Sec., Harley Fellowships, 76 Ockendon Road, London N1 3NW, UK. < t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "tony campbell" To: "*MapHist" , "*Lismaps" , "*Liber-GdC" Subject: [MapHist] Request for 'Chronicle' information for Imago Mundi Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 15:05:53 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 This is my annual request for information that might be relevant for the 'Chronicle' section in Imago Mundi: the International Journal for the History of Cartography. Please send me any information that you think *might* be of interest to an international audience. It should be news relating to the past twelve months [though I can store future details for use next year] and it should be of direct concern to the history of cartography. We are looking for the following:- 1. Personal News - deaths, significant appointments, prizes & awards, research fellowships, and doctorates [see a cumulative listing of past doctorates, and for the style of the individual entries, at < http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps/phd.html >] 2. Conferences & Meetings 3. Institutional & General News. You can see a sample from a previous year's volume, which will indicate the kinds of relevant material, at < http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps/gennews53.html >. 4. Exhibitions [obviously I use John Docktor's listing < http://www.docktor.com/ > but there are always some exhibits that are never publicised] 5. Notable Acquisitions by institutions, "featuring only collections, manuscript material, and rare or bibliographically important printed atlases, maps, charts and globes". 6. Unusual items that have come up for sale. [This section is now being compiled by Ashley Baynton-Williams < ashley.bw@btinternet.com >]. 'Chronicle' is the official record of what has happened in our field over the previous year. Its completeness depends, to a considerable extent, on what is sent in. If you have any information that you think might be relevant, please send it to me, and I will decide if it is appropriate or not. To meet this year's deadline, I need information please by **15 DECEMBER** [next Wednesday!] Thank you. Tony Campbell ***************************************** t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk Tony Campbell Compiler of 'Chronicle' 76 Ockendon Road London, N1 3NW UK Phone: 020 7359 6477 International: +44 20 7359 6477 Web site: http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps/imago.html ****************************************** _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: philhoehn@juno.com X-Original-From: philhoehn@juno.com Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 17:41:52 GMT To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Added Rumsey Online maps X-Mailer: Juno Webmail Version 1.0 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Images of 831 new maps and views have been added to the David Rumsey Collection: Illustrated Historical Atlas of the State of Indiana, 1876. Andreas, A. T.; Baskin, Forster and Company. 183 Maps and views. Similar in format to the Minnesota and Iowa Historical Atlases, also by Andreas. Includes detailed maps of towns and counties, as well as views of farms and businesses. The Official State Atlas of Kansas Compiled from Government Surveys, County Records and Personal Investigations, 1887. L.H. Everts & Co. 491 Maps and views. A mamoth atlas of Kansas, one of the most extensive state atlases published in the 19th century. Maps of cities, towns, counties, as well as views of businesses, farms, and livestock. Historical and Biographical Atlas of the New Jersey Coast, 1878. Rose, Theodore F.; Woolman, H. C.; Price, T. T. 118 Maps and views. An unusal atlas of the counties and towns that comprise the New Jersey coastal area. With exceptional illustrations of resort areas, detailed maps and views. New Topographical Atlas of the State of Ohio, 1872 Walling, H. F.; Gray, Ormando Willis; Lloyd, H. H. 39 Maps. A detailed atlas of the state of Ohio with separate maps of each county and major cities. An Atlas of the United States by H.H. Lloyd is added at the back. Phil Hoehn, Librarian David Rumsey Collection San Francisco philhoehn@juno.com http://www.davidrumsey.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl From: dilos@hol.gr X-Authentication-Warning: lion.hosting.dc.hol.net: apache set sender to dilos@hol.gr using -f Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 20:15:35 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] FREEWARE FotoArchive 2.5.1 for ArtHistorians/Historians/Archaeologists User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.1 X-Originating-IP: 194.30.220.167 X-Service: HOL EasyMail X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.3.3(snapshot 20020312) (kosmos) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 FREEWARE FotoArchive 2.5.1 for ArtHistorians/Historians/Archaeologists [This is not a promo. It's news on FREEWARE software made by a scholar of the humanities for the benefit of the world community of historians of art, historians, and archaeologists who use digital images in teaching and research.] FotoArchive is FREEWARE In 1996 I began collecting digital images to be used in a web page for my survey of western civilization course. The collection was stored on a zip drive but I noticed that every time I saved images on the zip, my image viewer used more and more space of my hard disk drive to store thumbnails of my images. My frustration with image viewers increased when I found out that I could not use notes for my images although in one of the viewers I used I could create sticky- type notes, which covered part of the image though. Still another problem was that I could not view on the screen two different collections at the same time. As I was fully acquainted with programming, I began exploring object-oriented WINDOWS programming and in late 1998 I produced the first PC version of FotoArchive software. With FotoArchive latest version, you can catalog your digital images by dividing them into albums and storing them ideally on a CD-RW, CD-ROM or Zip/Super disk. Although you may view your images in a thumbnail form, no thumbnails are saved and no hard disk is used. You can view your images one by one as a whole or in parts with the use of scrollbars, if they exceed the size of a 800x600 screen resolution. You may drag and drop the images directly from FotoArchive to Word or any other OLE2 computer program. You may view as many albums as your computer memory permits at the same time side by side and transfer images from one to another. You can write three different sets of notes for each one of the images, i.e. Category, Title, Notes, without affecting the image itself, and view them side by side with the images. You can print one, some, or all of your images along with (or without) the notes. You can search, manipulate, and feed to image editors your images in a number of ways. You will find all software capabilities described on the on line help or the manual. I now use FotoArchive a lot to catalog pictures I take with my digital camera and store on CD-RW disks. FotoArchive can run under Windows95/98/Me/NT4.0/2000/XP and above even on 486 Laptops with 8MB of memory although ideally you will use a Pentium based PC with 128MB of memory. FotoArchive will use only 2.6MBs of hard disk and can be installed and uninstalled easily on any laptop and desktop PC. The experts at the Tucows organization rated FotoArchive as excellent software (5/5 cows). According to Tucows statistics, more than 9,000 individuals have downloaded and used FotoArchive since January 2001. FotoArchive is available for downloading at: 1. The Tucows sites USA URL: http://www.tucows.com/business/preview/198387.html Europe URL: http://www.tucows.gr/business/preview/198387.html 2. FotoArchive home page http://users.hol.gr/~dilos/anistor/software/fotoarchive.htm FotoArchive is FREEWARE, made, maintained, and distributed by a scholar freely to other scholars or non-commercial users. I would appreciate it if you sent me your comments, questions, and suggestions on the application and how you use it. D. I. Loizos History Professor, Library Archaeologist _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: DSloanRareBooks@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 13:42:46 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] de Cordova map- To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In a message dated 1/7/2003 12:27:24 PM Central Standard Time, mapsguy@YAHOO.COM writes:


I think both are there, one must scroll down below the 1861 (Colton
issue) to get to the 1854 example. Excellent reference info. provided
by Donald Heald.


Thanks everyone--I am aware of Donald Heald's copy.  I am interested in learning if there are institutional holdings.  Surely so, but perhaps not, although it would seem that NYPL has (or had) a copy at one time (at least according to Streeter's note on the Yale copy).  Apparently, I have not searched institutional holdings in the right way.

The copy of the 1854 DeCordova map I appraised had various other material in the period frame, including a document signed  by Robspierre.  In the first phone conversation with the owners, they were convinced that the Robspierre would be worth a fortune.  After I shared with them the recent auction records on similar Robspierre documents, they were severely disappointed.  In an effort to distract them from their extreme sadness, I asked them what else was in the frame.  They replied, "Just some ugly old Texas map."

Maps are the most fun. X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Subject: Re: [MapHist] de Cordova map- To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.4 June 8, 2000 From: "ahudson" Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 16:05:00 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on MHTMAIL02/MHT/Nypl(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 01/08/2003 04:05:32 PM Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dearest mapsters, Due to my aggressive use of the delete button I have lost the thread for this discussion, but thanks to mention of NYPL and my eagle eyes, I finally checked on this DeCordova map. We do indeed have it. Formerly folded in a cloth or paper cover, is has been flattened, and is now on "rice paper" in a Mylar sleeve. There is loss at the former folds. The map is dated 1854 under the title; copyrighted 1848 at the lower margin, and dated 1855 on the paper or cloth cover, which by the way is blue/black with gold or beige lettering, indicating it was "Published by Lippincott, Grambo & Co., Philadelphia." At NYPL, we are always happy to help muddy the waters. Alice Alice C. Hudson Chief, Map Division The Humanities and Social Sciences Library The New York Public Library 5th Avenue & 42nd Street, Room 117 New York, NY 10018-2788 ahudson@nypl.org; 212-930-0589; fax 212-930-0027 http://nypl.org/research/chss/map/map.html The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit. - Nelson Henderson _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: DSloanRareBooks@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 16:15:11 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] chinese discoverers of America in 1/5/03 NYT Mag To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In a message dated 1/8/2003 1:58:47 PM Central Standard Time, rws@DIAL.PIPEX.COM writes:


Thank you--what a wonderfully educative medium the Internet is!


Well, I certainly have learned a lot in our map forum (thank you one and all), and also exlibris, the rare books forum.  I am frequently humbled in seeing the incredible posts that occur here.

There is always something new to learn, which makes life exciting. X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: DSloanRareBooks@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 17:27:24 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] de Cordova map- To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In a message dated 1/8/2003 3:29:33 PM Central Standard Time, ahudson@NYPL.ORG writes:


Due to my aggressive use of the delete button I have lost the thread for
this discussion, but thanks to mention of NYPL and my eagle eyes, I finally
checked on this DeCordova map. We do indeed have it. Formerly folded in a
cloth or paper cover, is has been flattened, and is now on "rice paper" in
a Mylar sleeve. There is loss at the former folds.

The map is dated 1854 under the title; copyrighted 1848 at the lower
margin, and dated 1855 on the paper or cloth cover, which by the way is
blue/black with gold or beige lettering, indicating it was "Published by
Lippincott, Grambo & Co., Philadelphia."

At NYPL, we are always happy to help muddy the waters.


Thank you, Alice, for clarifying matters and for always coming through.  You are the only institutional holding for the 1854 DeCordova that I have found thus far.  The Center for American History at the University of Texas at Austin has a catalogue card showing that they hold a copy, they are checking now to see if they have a facsimile, photostat, or, hopefully, the genuine map.

I love it that the NYPL copy has the pocket covers.  It is only idle speculation on my part, but I wonder if DeCordova printed one last copy for his own use before selling the rights to Colton.  Impossible to pin down.

Thanks,
Dorothy Sloan X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 20:30:15 +1300 From: Michael Ross Subject: [MapHist] Maps and Discovery To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dee The Globe, as you are probably aware, is the journal of the Australian Map Circle. The abstract for the paper: The Mysterious Eastland Revealed Michael Ross Abstract Abel Janzoon Tasman set sail from Batavia on 14 August, 1642 "to discover the partly known and still unreached South and Eastland" with the intended commercial payoff for the Dutch East India Company (VOC), of establishing "a short passage to Chile". Guided by his pilot major Visscher, super cargo Gilsemans, and assisted by 110 able men" on the flute Zeehaen and the ship Heemskerck, Tasman embarked on one of the Pacific's most remarkable and well documented voyages of discovery. For 350 years historians have examined Tasman's official report to the VOC, the maps and illustrations of the voyage by Visscher and Gilsemans, and the company records of the VOC, which together provide a comprehensive analysis of the entire voyage and its context. Remarkably, while volumes of historical scholarship have been devoted to the "Southland", not one sentence has ever explored the multiple references to the mysterious "Eastland". Nor has anyone ever publicly revealed any investigation into why Tasman's sailing instructions and plans contained the most precise latitudinal and longitudinal directions of any voyage of exploration in the Pacific, including all three of Cook’s voyages. Although ignored by researchers for three and a half centuries, these factors suggest Tasman and Visscher followed very clear and precise map information, towards a perceived eastern coastline. Evidence, in both a contemporary map and globe available to Tasman and Visscher, and prepared by an official mapmaker to the VOC, suggests Tasman's voyage was as much a carefully planned voyage of confirmation as it was of exploration. It suggests Tasman and his advisors believed they already knew the broad extent of the "South and Eastland", as well as the probable pathways to Chile, and were primarily looking to confirm their theories. That map and globe may forever change the way Dutch exploration of Australia, New Zealand and the South Pacific is viewed. If you are interested in the paper I am happy to forward an electronic copy on publication. It is graphics heavy with some 9 (I recall) maps. kind regards Michael _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 20:30:33 +1300 From: Michael Ross Subject: [MapHist] The way you SEE the issue... To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 To employ Shakespeare in a modern context, "The way you SEE the issue, IS the issue". Despite my challenge to certain list members to provide evidence (Easter Eggs or egg on the face) that I actually supported Mr. Menzies and his claims about the supposed Chinese 'discoveries', there are those who persist in constructing an artifice so they can demolish it, with little or no reference to the facts....the same crime they accuse Mr. Menzies of! Bert Johnson leads the way with his statement: "Forgive me, but every time I hear this "old truth" resurrected, it is used to defend a theory for which there is no confirmed evidence except for the advocate's conjectural (and possibly wishful) thinking." In the same way we correctly challenge Mr. Menzies, I challenge you to prove that is true in my case Bert! John Day "All of these pre-Columbian discoverers of the New World, either kept it a secret, never came back, or if they did spread the word on their return it did not spread far or the society wasn't really ready for it....there is also considerable evidence that earlier discoveries of the New World fell on deaf ears. Europe was just not ready to hear it." You may well be correct, but how does that justify the attack on Mr. Menzies' assertions? The 'scientific methodology' is based on gathering evidence to prove (or disprove). How does the possible blindness of Europe contribute to that discussion? I note you avoid answering my question: "Mr Day also states 'It is not sufficient to discover something or invent something, if the word does not get out'. Does that mean that discovery (or invention) is measured by the degree of publicity?" Robert Braeken displayed what some may regard as a culturally superior attitude by not disputing that "other cultures...make up the greater proportion of the world's population...", but challenging me prove that those cultures had the "greater proportion of knowledge". To confirm the value of his contribution he then equated my "private opinion" with "wishful thinking". Perhaps the question is, how would he know if my response was correct? Dee Longenbaugh asks me to "explain clearly, then, exactly what you meant?" by the statement: "What evidence do you have that I am one of those who "champions the skilfully hyped book". Sorry Dee....how much clearer can I be? I have replied to your question on my paper off-list as requested, though it might well be of interest to the list as it involves both maps and discovery. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 21:02:35 +1300 From: Michael Ross Subject: RE: [MapHist] Maps and Discovery To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 My apologies to the list. This was supposed to be a private posting to Dee....but some idiot got in the way! > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl]On > Behalf Of Michael Ross > Sent: Thursday, 9 January 2003 20:30 > To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > Subject: [MapHist] Maps and Discovery > > > Dee > > The Globe, as you are probably aware, is the journal of the Australian Map > Circle. > > The abstract for the paper: > > The Mysterious Eastland Revealed > > Michael Ross > > Abstract > Abel Janzoon Tasman set sail from Batavia on 14 August, 1642 "to discover > the partly known and still unreached South and Eastland" with the intended > commercial payoff for the Dutch East India Company (VOC), of > establishing "a > short passage to Chile". Guided by his pilot major Visscher, super cargo > Gilsemans, and assisted by 110 able men" on the flute Zeehaen and the ship > Heemskerck, Tasman embarked on one of the Pacific's most > remarkable and well > documented voyages of discovery. > > For 350 years historians have examined Tasman's official report > to the VOC, > the maps and illustrations of the voyage by Visscher and > Gilsemans, and the > company records of the VOC, which together provide a > comprehensive analysis > of the entire voyage and its context. > > Remarkably, while volumes of historical scholarship have been > devoted to the > "Southland", not one sentence has ever explored the multiple references to > the mysterious "Eastland". Nor has anyone ever publicly revealed any > investigation into why Tasman's sailing instructions and plans > contained the > most precise latitudinal and longitudinal directions of any voyage of > exploration in the Pacific, including all three of Cook’s voyages. > > Although ignored by researchers for three and a half centuries, these > factors suggest Tasman and Visscher followed very clear and precise map > information, towards a perceived eastern coastline. Evidence, in both a > contemporary map and globe available to Tasman and Visscher, and > prepared by > an official mapmaker to the VOC, suggests Tasman's voyage was as much a > carefully planned voyage of confirmation as it was of exploration. It > suggests Tasman and his advisors believed they already knew the > broad extent > of the "South and Eastland", as well as the probable pathways to > Chile, and > were primarily looking to confirm their theories. > > That map and globe may forever change the way Dutch exploration of > Australia, New Zealand and the South Pacific is viewed. > > If you are interested in the paper I am happy to forward an > electronic copy > on publication. It is graphics heavy with some 9 (I recall) maps. > > kind regards > Michael > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Strebe@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 03:15:10 EST Subject: [MapHist] Burning straw To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL For Mac OS X sub 25 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
As I am wont occasionally, I must beg the list members' indulgence. Please do not continue if you (quite understandably) have no stomach for contention. Michael Ross wrote:

>I am looking for light, for truth...what are you looking for? Comfort?

Mr. Ross, it may be true you seek truth, but it is not evident in your post. What is evident in your post is willful twisting of words to ridicule mine (and others'), presumably in order to salve to your own wounded pride.

I wrote a good bit, including quoting Morse's Geography of 1792, to illustrate the meaning of "discovery". I did so because Mr. Ross wrote:

As I read his posting, Mr. Mayer was raising the critical issue of
Euro-centrism. He rightly points out that we still claim that Columbus
"discovered" "America", knowing he was not the first European to visit those
shores...while denying the same claim to the "Indians" who travelled with
Columbus back to Europe!

The gist of my illustration was that "discovery" does not mean literally what the average person thinks it does in the historical context. The implication, then, is that Mr. Ross's attempt to call scholars to task fails because he is working from a different definition of discovery. Rather than addressing this point, Mr. Ross chose to excerpt, without context, these words of mine:

"Critical issue? For whom? Historians have never been confused about the perspective from which they write."

I wrote this to contest Mr. Ross's claim that Eurocentrism causes historians to credit discoveries to the wrong people and to fail to credit them to others in reciprocal situations. If a historian says that Columbus discovered American, the historian is investing the word "discover" with a different meaning than Mr. Ross is investing it with, and furthermore the historian is quite cognizant of what 'her' own meaning is. That was the purpose of my illustrating the meaning of the word "discovery". Eurocentrism is no critical issue to the historian because the historian knows how Eurocentrism is structured into the definitions she employs and into the historical debate. Rather than addressing this point (see the pattern?) Mr. Ross instead tries to manipulate this audience into thinking I meant something quite different:

"That statement in itself is highly debatable, but accepting at face value, what does it tell us? That we must accept what we are told because it is from an historian? That what the historian might tell us is always correct, because they are clear and are not "confused"?

Interestingly, we can infer here that Mr. Ross possesses a fair degree of intelligence to be able to produce plausible distortions of intent through red herring questions. It is most unfortunate that he chooses to employ that intelligence for disingenuous purposes, rather than toward the light and truth he claims to pursue.

I am rightfully chastised for "Historians have never been confused..." Certainly bad historians have been confused. Bad historians do not define the discipline, however, any more than bad teachers define pedagogy.

I also wrote:

"If there is evidence in China then the burden falls upon the Chinese to deliver it."

To which Mr. Ross asks,

"Pardon me? How does that equate with the scientific methodology?"

It does not equate with scientific methodology; it equates to political reality. It is the sovereign government of China who owns any artifacts of China's history lying within its borders, not hopeful archaeologists. Unless Mr. Ross is advocating bringing down the government of China to free his archaeological ambitions of governmental constraints, then, quite literally, it is the burden of the Chinese to deliver evidence. Is there something subtle about this fact? More to my point, though, it is just plain ridiculous to suggest that anyone ought to react charitably to a wild thesis on the speculation of evidence that hasn't even surfaced. Yet that is precisely what Mr. Ross champions when he writes:

"What does "solid evidence" mean? European records/maps/portulans/texts? How do we know there is not "solid evidence" in China?"

"Discovery" in the literal sense means little to history. It is possible America was discovered by Phoenicians (or some storm-blown Phoenician); they probably had the seafaring ability to. Polynesians made it to Hawaii, New Zealand, and Easter Island, amazing feats requiring skill that could take them to the American mainland had they but tried. It is also not impossible that Chinese vessels of some period or periods reached temperate latitudes in the Americas before Columbus did. The odds that it happened the way Menzies fantasizes, however, are very slim for several reasons already aired and many more not aired.

Even if any of those scenarios, or all of them, actually happened, they carry little historical importance however titillating they might be to contemplate. It is the enterprise of history to seek out the seeds that are causes, to follow their germination into effects, to chart their branches and leafs and the fruit born thereby, and to explore the pollination with the other trees of time. History's blood is relationships, not dead ends. Zheng He's purported voyage to America, and all the other scenarios I mention above, were dead ends if they ever happened at all. To cling to a literal definition of "discovery" to thereby malign historians for sins they commit against that ignorant definition bespeak nothing better than a barren and cynical misunderstanding of the historical enterprise.

I am finished with this conversation; I have no more time for your manipulative words, Mr. Ross. To those few in the group who have humored me thus far, I apologize for my usual truculent crabbiness in face of balderdash. I know there are those in the group who would like to advocate the scholarly methods more vigorously in this forum yet forebear because of a civil demeanor, which I do not possess, and academic standing, which I also do not possess. I only hope I met some part of that wish. I apologize if I have misrepresented the consensus of historians, one of which I am not.

Regards,
daan Strebe




 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Dee Longenbaugh To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 06:11:01 -0900 X-Mailer: Netscape Webmail Subject: Re: [MapHist] Maps and Discovery X-Accept-Language: en Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Michael, I know very little about Dutch voyages of discovery in spite of attending the very interesting IMCoS symposium in Amsterdam last October (pity you couldn't come, since that seems to be your area of interet), but I do know a great deal about Cook's third voyage. You are dead wrong when you state Tasman had better latitudinal and longitudinal information than Cook. Cook had a miserable chart on his voyage to Alaska and corrected it. He also established the latitude and longitude on his first two travels, not following established charts. That's what made his work so important. Scholars apparently have thought for a long time that Tasman probably found Australia, but the evidence is not there. Thank you for answering my request. Dee _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Dee Longenbaugh To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 06:33:58 -0900 X-Mailer: Netscape Webmail Subject: Re: [MapHist] Maps and Discovery X-Accept-Language: en Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Apologies to the group. As I think apparent, I thought I was replying privately to Mr. Ross. Sorry. Dee _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Cook, Andrew" To: "'maphist@geog.uu.nl'" Subject: RE: [MapHist] Maps and Discovery Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:49:52 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 But, Dee, these are always the most interesting exchanges. Why are we so anodyne in public and yet so penetrating in private correspondence? Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Dee Longenbaugh [mailto:deelong@ALASKA.COM] Sent: 09 January 2003 15:34 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Maps and Discovery Apologies to the group. As I think apparent, I thought I was replying privately to Mr. Ross. Sorry. Dee _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl ************************************************************************** Free exhibition at the British Library Galleries : Magic Pencil : Children's Book Illustration Today (to 31 March) original graphic work of 13 contemporary artists ************************************************************************* The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this e-mail and notify the postmaster@bl.uk : The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed or copied without the sender's consent. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the British Library. The British Library does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. ************************************************************************* _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: DSloanRareBooks@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 13:00:39 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] Maps and Discovery To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In a message dated 1/9/2003 11:07:44 AM Central Standard Time, Andrew.Cook@bl.uk writes:


But, Dee, these are always the most interesting exchanges.  Why are we so
anodyne in public and yet so penetrating in private correspondence?


Safer? X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 07:38:44 +1300 From: Michael Ross Subject: RE: [MapHist] Maps and Discovery To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dee You appear to have misunderstood the abstract. > You are dead wrong when you state Tasman had better latitudinal and > longitudinal information than Cook. What the abstract states is quite different: "Nor has anyone ever publicly revealed any investigation into why Tasman's sailing instructions and plans contained the most precise latitudinal and longitudinal directions of any voyage of exploration in the Pacific, including all three of Cook’s voyages." While both explorers sailed into the supposed unknown, Tasman had a very clear and precise set of instructions to follow...for instance sailing between 52 and 54 degrees south, then moving up to 44 degrees south once he had reached a certain point of longitude, then sailing at 40 degrees south until he reached 220 degrees longitude. A veritable route-map! > Cook had a miserable chart on his voyage to Alaska and corrected it. He also established the > latitude and longitude on his first two travels, not following established charts. Interestingly, on Cook's first voyage he used Tasman's map and Dalrymple's map as he attempted to reach New Zealand from the east, also on the 40th parallel. Cook, like Tasman 147 years earlier, was looking for 'Cook Strait' well before he got near it. > Scholars apparently have thought for a long time that Tasman probably found Australia, but the > evidence is not there. I am not aware of any scholars who have made this claim, but you are quite right. The Dutch had 'discovered' a good proportion of the west and northern coast of Australia before Tasman's 1642 voyage. These coastlines are shown on Gerritsz's 1628 "Map of some Dutch Contacts with Australia". They also appear in Hondius' Polus Antarcticus of 1637. Tasman 'discovered' further parts of the Northern coastline on his 1644 voyage. I hope this clarifies the matter for you. Regards Michael _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: ExJournal@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:41:37 EST Subject: [MapHist] Search term To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 66 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear all - I am trying, unsuccessfully so far, to identify sources dealing with the history of pilot books, reuters, coast pilots and the ilk. There is obviously a short hand, or academic term with which I am unfamiliar. These have been around for thousands of years, yet I find nothing of consequence using these key words. A rose by any other name. Suggestions please. Thanks in advance. Carl G. Schuster _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Gowrie Galleries" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Maps and Discovery Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 07:06:17 +1100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In Dee's last posting the following was written: - "Scholars apparently have thought for a long time that Tasman probably found Australia, but the evidence is not there." Any Tasmanian's amongst the group would have been understandably annoyed buy this comment. It is indeed well documented that Tasman unequivocally landed on and charted the southern coastlines of Tasmania (aptly now named after Tasman). Tasmania is a state of Australia! Perhaps you were referring to the Australian mainland - in particular the east coast? Simon maps@sydney.net Gowrie Galleries 316 Oxford St Woollahra 2025 Australia Ph - (61 2) 9387 4581 Fax - (61 2) 9389 0640 www.gowrie-galleries.com.au ----- Original Message ----- From: Dee Longenbaugh To: Sent: Friday, 10 January 2003 2:11 Subject: Re: [MapHist] Maps and Discovery > Michael, > I know very little about Dutch voyages of discovery in spite of > attending the very interesting IMCoS symposium in Amsterdam last October > (pity you couldn't come, since that seems to be your area of interet), > but I do know a great deal about Cook's third voyage. > You are dead wrong when you state Tasman had better latitudinal and > longitudinal information than Cook. Cook had a miserable chart on his > voyage to Alaska and corrected it. He also established the latitude and > longitude on his first two travels, not following established charts. > That's what made his work so important. > Scholars apparently have thought for a long time that Tasman > probably found Australia, but the evidence is not there. > Thank you for answering my request. > Dee > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Dee Longenbaugh To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 11:21:21 -0900 X-Mailer: Netscape Webmail Subject: Re: [MapHist] Search term X-Accept-Language: en Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Carl, In place of "reuters" try "rutters". A quick Google search, going to Advanced Search and adding "ships" and "navigation" brought up 337 hits, most of which would serve your purpose. Dee, who loves to Google Dee Longenbaugh The Observatory, ABAA tel 907/586-9676 fax 586-9606 http://www.observatorybooks.com ----- Original Message ----- From: ExJournal@aol.com Date: Thursday, January 9, 2003 10:41 am Subject: [MapHist] Search term > Dear all - I am trying, unsuccessfully so far, to identify sources > dealing > with the history of pilot books, reuters, coast pilots and the ilk. > There is > obviously a short hand, or academic term with which I am > unfamiliar. These > have been around for thousands of years, yet I find nothing of > consequence > using these key words. A rose by any other name. Suggestions > please. Thanks > in advance. Carl G. Schuster > _ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Originating-IP: 205.185.2.114 From: "carljweber" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Search term Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:44:43 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jan 2003 20:45:43.0724 (UTC) FILETIME=[14346EC0:01C2B820] Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Hey! I'm a different Carl. Not that I'm uninterested in the subject, but I'll here pass ; ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dee Longenbaugh" To: Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 2:21 PM Subject: Re: [MapHist] Search term > Carl, > In place of "reuters" try "rutters". A quick Google search, going to > Advanced Search and adding "ships" and "navigation" brought up 337 hits, > most of which would serve your purpose. > Dee, > who loves to Google > > Dee Longenbaugh > The Observatory, ABAA > tel 907/586-9676 > fax 586-9606 > http://www.observatorybooks.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ExJournal@aol.com > Date: Thursday, January 9, 2003 10:41 am > Subject: [MapHist] Search term > > > Dear all - I am trying, unsuccessfully so far, to identify sources > > dealing > > with the history of pilot books, reuters, coast pilots and the ilk. > > There is > > obviously a short hand, or academic term with which I am > > unfamiliar. These > > have been around for thousands of years, yet I find nothing of > > consequence > > using these key words. A rose by any other name. Suggestions > > please. Thanks > > in advance. Carl G. Schuster > > _ > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Maura O'Connor" To: "'maphist@geog.uu.nl'" Subject: RE: [MapHist] Maps and Discovery Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:10:57 +1100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear Michael What about the French influence/awareness of an east coast to Australia, even if conjectured? Jean Baptiste Nolin's world wall map of 1700 clearly shows a definite (not dashed) line extending from Papua to Tasmania, which was also taken up by G. Robert de Vaugondy, whose map Cook included in his set of charts for his Endeavour voyage to the Pacific. Where did the French get this idea from?! Yours sincerely Maura O'Connor Map Curator National Library of Australia CANBERRA ACT 2617 AUSTRALIA Phone : 61 2 6262 1280 Fax : 61 2 6262 1653 Email : moconnor@nla.gov.au > ---------- > From: Michael Ross[SMTP:michael.ross@clear.net.nz] > Reply To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > Sent: Friday, 10 January 2003 5:38 AM > To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > Subject: RE: [MapHist] Maps and Discovery > > Dee > > You appear to have misunderstood the abstract. > > > You are dead wrong when you state Tasman had better latitudinal and > > longitudinal information than Cook. > > What the abstract states is quite different: > > "Nor has anyone ever publicly revealed any investigation into why Tasman's > sailing instructions and plans contained the most precise latitudinal and > longitudinal directions of any voyage of > exploration in the Pacific, including all three of Cook's voyages." > > While both explorers sailed into the supposed unknown, Tasman had a very > clear and precise set of instructions to follow...for instance sailing > between 52 and 54 degrees south, then moving up to 44 degrees south once > he > had reached a certain point of longitude, then sailing at 40 degrees south > until he reached 220 degrees longitude. A veritable route-map! > > > Cook had a miserable chart on his voyage to Alaska and corrected it. He > also established the > > latitude and longitude on his first two travels, not following > established > charts. > > Interestingly, on Cook's first voyage he used Tasman's map and Dalrymple's > map as he attempted to reach New Zealand from the east, also on the 40th > parallel. Cook, like Tasman 147 years earlier, was looking for 'Cook > Strait' > well before he got near it. > > > Scholars apparently have thought for a long time that Tasman probably > found Australia, but the > > evidence is not there. > > I am not aware of any scholars who have made this claim, but you are quite > right. The Dutch had 'discovered' a good proportion of the west and > northern > coast of Australia before Tasman's 1642 voyage. These coastlines are shown > on Gerritsz's 1628 "Map of some Dutch Contacts with Australia". They also > appear in Hondius' Polus Antarcticus of 1637. > > Tasman 'discovered' further parts of the Northern coastline on his 1644 > voyage. > > I hope this clarifies the matter for you. > > Regards > > Michael > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:55:54 +1300 From: Michael Ross Subject: RE: [MapHist] Maps and Discovery To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Hi Maura I was not aware of Nolin's map but was aware of Vaugondy. Thanks! My response to Dee was intended to be specific to his email to me rather than being expansive on the subject. See you in Sydney? Regards Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl]On > Behalf Of Maura O'Connor > Sent: Friday, 10 January 2003 10:11 > To: 'maphist@geog.uu.nl' > Subject: RE: [MapHist] Maps and Discovery > > > Dear Michael > What about the French influence/awareness of an east coast to Australia, > even if conjectured? Jean Baptiste Nolin's world wall map of 1700 clearly > shows a definite (not dashed) line extending from Papua to Tasmania, which > was also taken up by G. Robert de Vaugondy, whose map Cook included in his > set of charts for his Endeavour voyage to the Pacific. Where did > the French > get this idea from?! > Yours sincerely > Maura O'Connor > Map Curator > National Library of Australia > CANBERRA ACT 2617 > AUSTRALIA > Phone : 61 2 6262 1280 > Fax : 61 2 6262 1653 > Email : moconnor@nla.gov.au > > > > > ---------- > > From: Michael Ross[SMTP:michael.ross@clear.net.nz] > > Reply To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > > Sent: Friday, 10 January 2003 5:38 AM > > To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > > Subject: RE: [MapHist] Maps and Discovery > > > > Dee > > > > You appear to have misunderstood the abstract. > > > > > You are dead wrong when you state Tasman had better latitudinal and > > > longitudinal information than Cook. > > > > What the abstract states is quite different: > > > > "Nor has anyone ever publicly revealed any investigation into > why Tasman's > > sailing instructions and plans contained the most precise > latitudinal and > > longitudinal directions of any voyage of > > exploration in the Pacific, including all three of Cook's voyages." > > > > While both explorers sailed into the supposed unknown, Tasman had a very > > clear and precise set of instructions to follow...for instance sailing > > between 52 and 54 degrees south, then moving up to 44 degrees south once > > he > > had reached a certain point of longitude, then sailing at 40 > degrees south > > until he reached 220 degrees longitude. A veritable route-map! > > > > > Cook had a miserable chart on his voyage to Alaska and > corrected it. He > > also established the > > > latitude and longitude on his first two travels, not following > > established > > charts. > > > > Interestingly, on Cook's first voyage he used Tasman's map and > Dalrymple's > > map as he attempted to reach New Zealand from the east, also on the 40th > > parallel. Cook, like Tasman 147 years earlier, was looking for 'Cook > > Strait' > > well before he got near it. > > > > > Scholars apparently have thought for a long time that Tasman probably > > found Australia, but the > > > evidence is not there. > > > > I am not aware of any scholars who have made this claim, but > you are quite > > right. The Dutch had 'discovered' a good proportion of the west and > > northern > > coast of Australia before Tasman's 1642 voyage. These > coastlines are shown > > on Gerritsz's 1628 "Map of some Dutch Contacts with Australia". > They also > > appear in Hondius' Polus Antarcticus of 1637. > > > > Tasman 'discovered' further parts of the Northern coastline on his 1644 > > voyage. > > > > I hope this clarifies the matter for you. > > > > Regards > > > > Michael > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > > the views of the author. > > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:07:48 +1300 From: Michael Ross Subject: [MapHist] Jean Baptiste Nolin To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Maura I have had a look at your website and your particular entry on Jean Baptiste Nolin. http://www.nla.gov.au/ntwkpubs/gw/56/p19a01.htm It appears, at first inspection, that Nolin has take Jean Rotz's Java la Grande and used it to link New Guinea to Tasmania. I will do some digital overlaying and see how the orientation of the coastline fits with the Rotz version. Do you have a bigger image?...and an image of the part of the map that shows NZ? MrSID? Regards Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl]On > Behalf Of Maura O'Connor > Sent: Friday, 10 January 2003 10:11 > To: 'maphist@geog.uu.nl' > Subject: RE: [MapHist] Maps and Discovery > > > Dear Michael > What about the French influence/awareness of an east coast to Australia, > even if conjectured? Jean Baptiste Nolin's world wall map of 1700 clearly > shows a definite (not dashed) line extending from Papua to Tasmania, which > was also taken up by G. Robert de Vaugondy, whose map Cook included in his > set of charts for his Endeavour voyage to the Pacific. Where did > the French > get this idea from?! > Yours sincerely > Maura O'Connor > Map Curator > National Library of Australia > CANBERRA ACT 2617 > AUSTRALIA > Phone : 61 2 6262 1280 > Fax : 61 2 6262 1653 > Email : moconnor@nla.gov.au > > > > > ---------- > > From: Michael Ross[SMTP:michael.ross@clear.net.nz] > > Reply To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > > Sent: Friday, 10 January 2003 5:38 AM > > To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > > Subject: RE: [MapHist] Maps and Discovery > > > > Dee > > > > You appear to have misunderstood the abstract. > > > > > You are dead wrong when you state Tasman had better latitudinal and > > > longitudinal information than Cook. > > > > What the abstract states is quite different: > > > > "Nor has anyone ever publicly revealed any investigation into > why Tasman's > > sailing instructions and plans contained the most precise > latitudinal and > > longitudinal directions of any voyage of > > exploration in the Pacific, including all three of Cook's voyages." > > > > While both explorers sailed into the supposed unknown, Tasman had a very > > clear and precise set of instructions to follow...for instance sailing > > between 52 and 54 degrees south, then moving up to 44 degrees south once > > he > > had reached a certain point of longitude, then sailing at 40 > degrees south > > until he reached 220 degrees longitude. A veritable route-map! > > > > > Cook had a miserable chart on his voyage to Alaska and > corrected it. He > > also established the > > > latitude and longitude on his first two travels, not following > > established > > charts. > > > > Interestingly, on Cook's first voyage he used Tasman's map and > Dalrymple's > > map as he attempted to reach New Zealand from the east, also on the 40th > > parallel. Cook, like Tasman 147 years earlier, was looking for 'Cook > > Strait' > > well before he got near it. > > > > > Scholars apparently have thought for a long time that Tasman probably > > found Australia, but the > > > evidence is not there. > > > > I am not aware of any scholars who have made this claim, but > you are quite > > right. The Dutch had 'discovered' a good proportion of the west and > > northern > > coast of Australia before Tasman's 1642 voyage. These > coastlines are shown > > on Gerritsz's 1628 "Map of some Dutch Contacts with Australia". > They also > > appear in Hondius' Polus Antarcticus of 1637. > > > > Tasman 'discovered' further parts of the Northern coastline on his 1644 > > voyage. > > > > I hope this clarifies the matter for you. > > > > Regards > > > > Michael > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > > the views of the author. > > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Originating-IP: [64.158.186.60] From: "Hardy LeBel" To: "Map History Univ of Utrich" Subject: Re: [MapHist] Search term Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 19:54:40 -0500 X-Mailer: MSN Explorer 7.02.0011.2700 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jan 2003 00:54:38.0949 (UTC) FILETIME=[DA4AE950:01C2B842] Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
Carl,
 
I fear that "we academics" chose not accept a thing unless it looks very much like something in a book written by a dear white man.
 
Had a nice chat with Lee Enterline about the Vinland Map.  That is one that will descend into the ranks of the faithful and the heretics.
 
Pace,
 
Hardy
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: ExJournal@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 2:56 PM
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: [MapHist] Search term
 
Dear all -  I am trying, unsuccessfully so far, to identify sources dealing
with the history of pilot books, reuters, coast pilots and the ilk. There is
obviously a short hand, or academic term with which I am unfamiliar. These
have been around for thousands of years, yet I find nothing of consequence
using these key words. A rose by any other name. Suggestions please. Thanks
in advance. Carl G. Schuster
_______________________________________________________________
MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.nl
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Dirk.Veltkamp@TOURISM.TAS.GOV.AU Subject: Re: [MapHist] Maps and Discovery To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.8 June 18, 2001 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:21:08 +1100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on DMLST-TT/DSD(Release 5.0.10 |March 22, 2002) at 10/01/2003 13:21:10 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Ahh! We were lost for a moment, but found again. Happens all the time, even among mappish folk! Thanks Simon Dirk "Gowrie Galleries" To: cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Maps and Discovery owner-maphist@geo g.uu.nl 10/01/2003 07:06 AM Please respond to maphist In Dee's last posting the following was written: - "Scholars apparently have thought for a long time that Tasman probably found Australia, but the evidence is not there." Any Tasmanian's amongst the group would have been understandably annoyed buy this comment. It is indeed well documented that Tasman unequivocally landed on and charted the southern coastlines of Tasmania (aptly now named after Tasman). Tasmania is a state of Australia! Perhaps you were referring to the Australian mainland - in particular the east coast? Simon _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Search term Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 09:32:14 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Also, asking for 'reuters' would produce the wrong kind of 'news'! PS: For an old-fashioned paper book you could start with 'English maritime books printed before 1801 . . . ' by Thomas R. Adams & David W. Waters (Providence RI : John Carter Brown Library ; London : National Maritime Museum, 1995), xxxi,602p., ISBN 0916617432. Not knowing how many languages you read, this could be a useful start both on the subject, on materials known, and with an extensive bibliography within its own covers. Francis Herbert f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives'] -----Original Message----- From: Dee Longenbaugh [mailto:deelong@ALASKA.COM] Sent: 09 January 2003 20:21 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Search term Carl, In place of "reuters" try "rutters". A quick Google search, going to Advanced Search and adding "ships" and "navigation" brought up 337 hits, most of which would serve your purpose. Dee, who loves to Google Dee Longenbaugh The Observatory, ABAA tel 907/586-9676 fax 586-9606 http://www.observatorybooks.com ----- Original Message ----- From: ExJournal@aol.com Date: Thursday, January 9, 2003 10:41 am Subject: [MapHist] Search term > Dear all - I am trying, unsuccessfully so far, to identify sources > dealing > with the history of pilot books, reuters, coast pilots and the ilk. > There is > obviously a short hand, or academic term with which I am > unfamiliar. These > have been around for thousands of years, yet I find nothing of > consequence > using these key words. A rose by any other name. Suggestions > please. Thanks > in advance. Carl G. Schuster > _ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Originating-IP: [131.211.208.162] From: "Robert Braeken" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Calendars Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:28:31 +0100 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jan 2003 10:28:31.0299 (UTC) FILETIME=[05929130:01C2B893] Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 ms. Woodward, are you aware that I have compiled a calendar for 2003 of old maps, illustrating the Silk Road ? Robert Braeken >From: Frances Woodward >Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >To: Map History Discussion List >Subject: [MapHist] Calendars >Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:31:25 -0800 (PST) > >Has anyone seen any nice map calendars for 2003? So far I haven't found >any map calendars, and the local dealers where I usually find them say >they haven't seen any this year. I have tried the likely publishers I >could think of, with no success. > >A map calendar deprived > Fran >************************************************************************** >Frances Woodward, Reference Librarian, >Rare Books and Special Collections, Main Library, >University of British Columbia, 1956 Main Mall, Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z1 > Tel: (604) 822-2819 Fax: (604) 822-9587 > E-mail: franwood@interchange.ubc.ca > URL: http://www.library.ubc.ca/spcoll/ > >Historical Maps Collection and Cartographic Archives >Arkley Collection of Early & Historical Children's Literature >************************************************************************** > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _________________________________________________________________ Chatten met je online vrienden via MSN Messenger. http://messenger.msn.nl/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Harold Cramer" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Search term Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:41:37 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at pop018.verizon.net from [151.201.40.216] at Fri, 10 Jan 2003 07:41:27 -0600 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Hello: There is a book titled "Early Sea Charts" by Robert Putman, Abbeville Press New York 1983, that has excellent reproductions of old charts, at least one for every ocean. Harold Cramer ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 4:32 AM Subject: RE: [MapHist] Search term > Also, asking for 'reuters' would produce the wrong kind of 'news'! > > PS: For an old-fashioned paper book you could start with 'English maritime > books printed before 1801 . . . ' by Thomas R. Adams & David W. Waters > (Providence RI : John Carter Brown Library ; London : National Maritime > Museum, 1995), xxxi,602p., ISBN 0916617432. Not knowing how many > languages you read, this could be a useful start both on the subject, on > materials known, and with an extensive bibliography within its own covers. > > Francis Herbert > f.herbert@rgs.org > http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives'] > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dee Longenbaugh [mailto:deelong@ALASKA.COM] > Sent: 09 January 2003 20:21 > To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > Subject: Re: [MapHist] Search term > > Carl, > In place of "reuters" try "rutters". A quick Google search, going to > > Advanced Search and adding "ships" and "navigation" brought up 337 hits, > most of which would serve your purpose. > Dee, > who loves to Google > > Dee Longenbaugh > The Observatory, ABAA > tel 907/586-9676 > fax 586-9606 > http://www.observatorybooks.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ExJournal@aol.com > Date: Thursday, January 9, 2003 10:41 am > Subject: [MapHist] Search term > > > Dear all - I am trying, unsuccessfully so far, to identify sources > > dealing > > with the history of pilot books, reuters, coast pilots and the ilk. > > There is > > obviously a short hand, or academic term with which I am > > unfamiliar. These > > have been around for thousands of years, yet I find nothing of > > consequence > > using these key words. A rose by any other name. Suggestions > > please. Thanks > > in advance. Carl G. Schuster > > _ > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "John Woram" To: Subject: [MapHist] Digital Overlaying Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 09:53:11 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Michael, I'm new to the list, and I saw your remark about digital overlaying. I've been doing some of that myself, and I wondered if you had any examples online somewhere? And/or, have you seen any examples elsewhere? If so, I'd be interested to see how others approach the same technique. Thanks, John Woram _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 15:20:06 +1300 From: Michael Ross Subject: RE: [MapHist] Digital Overlaying To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 John Yes I have created some examples myself, some of which will appear in the paper on Tasman I referred to recently on the list. Let me know whether you are interested in graphics on maps or map on map. Regards Michael ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ Michael Ross Performance Resources Voice: +64.21.897.889 Fax: +64.21.218.2166 performanceresources@clear.net.nz http://performanceresources.97.ca Legal Notice: The information in this electronic mail message is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to, or use of, this Internet electronic mail message by anyone else is not authorised. Please delete all copies of this message if you are not the intended addressee. __________________________________________________ > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl]On > Behalf Of John Woram > Sent: Saturday, 11 January 2003 03:53 > To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > Subject: [MapHist] Digital Overlaying > > > Michael, > > I'm new to the list, and I saw your remark about digital overlaying. > I've been doing some of that myself, and I wondered if you had any > examples online somewhere? And/or, have you seen any examples > elsewhere? If so, I'd be interested to see how others approach the > same technique. > > Thanks, > > John Woram > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "John Woram" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Digital Overlaying Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 09:32:38 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Michael, I'm just generally interested in any techniques used to overlay one map on another--via PC or paper. Here's two examples: http://www.galapagos.to/maps.htm#Anonymous The "Compare coastline" link in this entry opens a window showing a ca. 1530 chart and a modern map. The coastline from the former can be dragged down to the latter for comparison. Or, click the "demo" link and it happens automatically. http://www.galapagos.to/maps.htm#Bowen The "Compare with modern map" link opens a new window with an early 18th c. chart. The "Show/Hide" button overlays a modern map, drawn to the same lat/long scale. I'm now just snooping about to see how others might handle the same general idea. John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Marco Piccardi" To: Subject: R: [MapHist] Digital Overlaying Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 15:41:07 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 -----Messaggio originale----- Da: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl]Per conto di John Woram Inviato: venerdì 10 gennaio 2003 15.53 A: maphist@geog.uu.nl Oggetto: [MapHist] Digital Overlaying Michael, I'm new to the list, and I saw your remark about digital overlaying. I've been doing some of that myself, and I wondered if you had any examples online somewhere? And/or, have you seen any examples elsewhere? If so, I'd be interested to see how others approach the same technique. Thanks, John Woram Dear all (excuse my english) I have been working at digital overlaying of old maps for ten years. I operate on maps (from XVI to XIX century) at big and very big scale (1:1000-1:10.000). My aim is to highlight the transformations which took place between XVI and XIX century in the Tuscan territory. My last work I Segni del Territorio (with about 2.000 old map reproductions) is in 8 biligual CD Rom (italian and english version http://www.sopratuttolibri.it/). The research does not limit itself to reproposing the historical design but proceeds to its own georeferencing on the Regional Technical Map (CTR): the territorial and cartographical premise for the Tuscan information system. The user, after consultation of the preparatory level and guide to navigation, sees a base map defined by the administrative limits of the Municipality of Prato and a reference grid which activates the various sheets of the CTR. Once the place name or area of interest has been identified, the user can access consultation of the historic data distributed in eleven layers. In any case for most of the drawings we have gained a degree of tolerance of +/- five meters. Special chromatic fields, as suggested by the Help button for navigation, distinguish the level of approximation. The same operation has provided a faithful graphic restitution of the road system and settlements of the 16th, 18th and 19th centuries. On 7th may 2003 I Segni del Territorio will be at XXXV Settimana ("The Land market") of the Istituto Internazionale di Storia Economica “F.Datini” di Prato. Thanks Marco Piccardi _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "John Woram" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Digital Overlaying Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 11:15:32 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear Marco Piccardi, Your work sounds very interesting--I went to the sopratuttolibri.it site, but I couldn't find the CDs you mentioned. But in any case, I'd guess that no demo pages are available from the bookstore site anyway. If any of your work can be viewed online, please let me know. Ciao, John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: DSloanRareBooks@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 18:00:17 EST Subject: [MapHist] Disturnell Treaty Map To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I suspect that I will be talking to myself again in this post, but nonetheless.... Background to question: >From Jack Rittenhouse's Disturnell's Treaty Map, p. 5: Few maps in United States history have had a role as interesting as that of the Disturnell Map-the map that was attached to the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo at the end of the Mexican War in 1848. The signers of that treaty thought they were making things simple by defining the line between the United States and Mexico according to the boundary shown on a currently popular map published by John Disturnell. But because there were errors on the map, it took eight years of discussions, surveys, and the Gadsden Purchase to straighten out the major disputes that arose. Part of the disputed territory-the Chamizal area at El Paso-was not determined finally until 1963, a hundred and fifteen years after the original treaty was signed.... See also Lawrence Martin's essay "John Disturnell's Map of the United Mexican States" in Ristow's A la Carte: Selected Papers on Maps and Atlases. Washington: Library of Congress, 1972, pp. 204-21. The matter was complicated further because the "seventh" edition of Disturnell's map was attached to the U.S. copy of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, and the "twelfth" edition was attached to the Mexican copy of the Treaty. The primary maps in the Treaty Map sequence are as follows, in order of publication: Tanner. A Map of the United States of Mexico.... Philadelphia, 1826. Wheat, TMW 364. White, Gallaher & White. Mapa de los Estados Unidos de Méjico.... New York, 1828. Wheat, TMW 384. Rosa. Mapa de los Estados Unidos Méjicanos.... Paris, 1837. Wheat, TMW 429 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "V+R Mayer" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Disturnell Treaty Map Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 17:54:38 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
There is cartographic importance, who drew/published a map first, with what innovations.
There is historic importance, which influenced events the most.
Which is historically the most important is an open question, a very subjective one.
..........I don't know.
RLM
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2003 5:00 PM
Subject: [MapHist] Disturnell Treaty Map

I suspect that I will be talking to myself again in this post, but nonetheless....

Background to question:

From Jack Rittenhouse's Disturnell's Treaty Map, p. 5:

Few maps in United States history have had a role as interesting as that of the Disturnell Map-the map that was attached to the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo at the end of the Mexican War in 1848.  The signers of that treaty thought they were making things simple by defining the line between the United States and Mexico according to the boundary shown on a currently popular map published by John Disturnell.  But because there were errors on the map, it took eight years of discussions, surveys, and the Gadsden Purchase to straighten out the major disputes that arose. Part of the disputed territory-the Chamizal area at El Paso-was not determined finally until 1963, a hundred and fifteen years after the original treaty was signed....

See also Lawrence Martin's essay "John Disturnell's Map of the United Mexican States" in Ristow's A la Carte: Selected Papers on Maps and Atlases. Washington:  Library of Congress, 1972, pp. 204-21.

The matter was complicated further because the "seventh" edition of Disturnell's map was attached to the U.S. copy of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, and the "twelfth" edition was attached to the Mexican copy of the Treaty.

The primary maps in the Treaty Map sequence are as follows, in order of publication:

Tanner. A Map of the United States of Mexico.... Philadelphia, 1826. Wheat, TMW 364.

White, Gallaher & White. Mapa de los Estados Unidos de Méjico.... New York, 1828.  Wheat, TMW 384.

Rosa. Mapa de los Estados Unidos Méjicanos.... Paris, 1837. Wheat, TMW 429.

Disturnell. Mapa de los Estados Unidos de Méjico.... New York, 1846 (plus over twenty subsequent variants: four in 1846, seven in 1847, four in 1848, four in 1849, two in 1850, and one in 1858). Wheat, TMW 507, etc., etc....

Question:  Which map is the most important historically in this fascinating cartographical sequence?

Tanner's 1826 printing with his fateful alteration of the southern boundary of New Mexico west of the Rio Grande, which was faithfully reproduced by White, Gallaher & White, Rosa, and Disturnell?

White, Gallaher & White's 1828 version (straight from Tanner's 1826 edition, but with English title, legends, and place names in Spanish)?  Lawrence Martin considered White, Gallaher & White's map to be the first edition of Disturnell's map.

The exotic Rosa version published in Paris in 1837 (a copy of Tanner's subsequent 1834 edition, on the original scale and translated into Spanish)?   Streeter (233) described Rosa's map as "an example of an independent plagiarism of the 1834 edition of Tanner's map."

Or, one of Disturnell's twenty-plus versions?  If so, which one?  The first printing, the seventh, or perhaps the twelfth?
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: DSloanRareBooks@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 19:56:56 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] Disturnell Treaty Map To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In a message dated 1/11/2003 6:07:52 PM Central Standard Time, ryvmayer@internet.com.mx writes:


There is cartographic importance, who drew/published a map first, with what innovations.
There is historic importance, which influenced events the most.
Which is historically the most important is an open question, a very subjective one.
..........I don't know.


Ah, I am not alone!

Perhaps the 1826 Tanner and the first printing of the Disturnell (1846) are the most important from the cartographic perspective; and the seventh and twelfth editions of the Disturnell are the most important historically.  ??  Your way of considering the question is good.  Thank you for helping me try to order my thinking on this matter.

In all, there are over 35 separate maps in the Treaty sequence, and all of these maps appear to be quite rare.  Disturnell's maps would seem to be the most common, but that is deceptive.  Since there were so many variants (over twenty) of the Disturnell map, they are more likely to be extant.  However, taken individually, the variants of Disturnell's maps appear to be quite rare.

My guess is that the most difficult of the Treaty sequence maps to obtain are the 1826 Tanner and the White, Gallaher & White. There is much more to say about the infrequent appearance of these maps on the market and their rarity, but I will spare you, except to say that there is only one edition of White, Gallaher & White, whereas there are two editions of Rosa, about ten variants of the Tanner, and over twenty versions of Disturnell.  I would like to step back in time and attend the Streeter Sale.  Born too late.  Pardon me for mentioning value, which I know can be a chafing subject to some members of this forum.  But the reality is that value is important.  Even a library or museum will at times need to know value because of considerations relating to exhibit, conservation, insurance, etc.

The Treaty map series is fascinating from several perspectives.

 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Info" To: "Map History" Subject: [MapHist] please remove me from mailing list Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 18:13:48 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 george@mapsandprints.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Jens P. Bornholt" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Digital Overlaying Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 21:18:42 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
What I would like to know is, if it is possible to find a way of overlaying any other parts of the world or are these all special programs developed by those interested only in special areas?
Jens P.Bornholt
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 8:20 PM
Subject: RE: [MapHist] Digital Overlaying

John
Yes I have created some examples myself, some of which will appear in the
paper on Tasman I referred to recently on the list. Let me know whether you
are interested in graphics on maps or map on map.
Regards
Michael

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------
Michael Ross
Performance Resources
Voice: +64.21.897.889
Fax:    +64.21.218.2166
performanceresources@clear.net.nz
http://performanceresources.97.ca


Legal Notice:
The information in this electronic mail message is confidential and may be
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__________________________________________________


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl]On
> Behalf Of John Woram
> Sent: Saturday, 11 January 2003 03:53
> To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
> Subject: [MapHist] Digital Overlaying
>
>
> Michael,
>
> I'm new to the list, and I saw your remark about digital overlaying.
> I've been doing some of that myself, and I wondered if you had any
> examples online somewhere? And/or, have you seen any examples
> elsewhere? If so, I'd be interested to see how others approach the
> same technique.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Woram
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
> hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
> The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
> the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
> Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
> the views of the author.
> List Information: http://www.maphist.nl

_______________________________________________________________
MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.nl
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "John Woram" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Digital Overlaying Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 08:46:23 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Jens, You can overlay any two (or more) maps at all. The examples on my website were done by scanning the maps, then re-sizing one of them to match the scale of the other. Then the extraneous detail on the top map was stripped away so that the underlying map could be seen. All this was done in Photoshop, but could no doubt be done in many other image-editing programs. Depending on your needs (printing? website?), the maps could be merged into a single file or saved as separate images, which is what I've done with my examples. Then I wrote some HTML code to place one image on top of the other, and to turn the top image on/off for comparison purposes. I don't know how others would handle this, but perhaps someone else will describe what they've done. Maybe there's a better way. John Woram _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Organization: The Ohio State University Center for Mapping Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 09:57:08 -0500 From: "Duane F. Marble" Organization: OSU Center for Mapping User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 (nscd2) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Digital Overlaying Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 John, It is possible to overlay two digital maps of the same area only when they have been brought into registration with each other. This activity may pose significant problems including dealing with the unknown projection problem (John Snyder did some nice work on this) as well as being able to identify a large enough set of properly distributed points whose locations are known on both maps. I have seen rubber sheeting being used (by those who should have known better!) to try and move property boundaries from old tax maps to modern planametric ones. The resulting "overlay" brought the limited number of registration points together but failed badly where property lines were supposed to be "the same" as road centerlines. This problem is a critical one in some cases (such as tax mapping) but may be of less significance in other situations depending upon the goals of your analysis. Duane John Woram wrote: >Jens, > >You can overlay any two (or more) maps at all. The examples on my >website were done by scanning the maps, then re-sizing one of them to >match the scale of the other. Then the extraneous detail on the top >map was stripped away so that the underlying map could be seen. All >this was done in Photoshop, but could no doubt be done in many other >image-editing programs. > >Depending on your needs (printing? website?), the maps could be merged >into a single file or saved as separate images, which is what I've >done with my examples. Then I wrote some HTML code to place one image >on top of the other, and to turn the top image on/off for comparison >purposes. I don't know how others would handle this, but perhaps >someone else will describe what they've done. Maybe there's a better >way. > >John Woram > > -- Dr. Duane F. Marble Professor Emeritus of Geography Telephone: 614-292-4419 Center for Mapping Fax: 614-292-8062 The Ohio State University 1216 Kinnear Road Email: marble.1@osu.edu Columbus, Ohio 43212 Two thoughts: "Time is Nature's way of stopping things happening all at once." "God invented space so that not everything had to happen in Columbus." _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Organization: The Ohio State University Center for Mapping Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 09:57:08 -0500 From: "Duane F. Marble" Organization: OSU Center for Mapping User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 (nscd2) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Digital Overlaying List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jan 2003 15:03:08.0653 (UTC) FILETIME=[B7AAC1D0:01C2BA4B] Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 John, It is possible to overlay two digital maps of the same area only when they have been brought into registration with each other. This activity may pose significant problems including dealing with the unknown projection problem (John Snyder did some nice work on this) as well as being able to identify a large enough set of properly distributed points whose locations are known on both maps. I have seen rubber sheeting being used (by those who should have known better!) to try and move property boundaries from old tax maps to modern planametric ones. The resulting "overlay" brought the limited number of registration points together but failed badly where property lines were supposed to be "the same" as road centerlines. This problem is a critical one in some cases (such as tax mapping) but may be of less significance in other situations depending upon the goals of your analysis. Duane John Woram wrote: >Jens, > >You can overlay any two (or more) maps at all. The examples on my >website were done by scanning the maps, then re-sizing one of them to >match the scale of the other. Then the extraneous detail on the top >map was stripped away so that the underlying map could be seen. All >this was done in Photoshop, but could no doubt be done in many other >image-editing programs. > >Depending on your needs (printing? website?), the maps could be merged >into a single file or saved as separate images, which is what I've >done with my examples. Then I wrote some HTML code to place one image >on top of the other, and to turn the top image on/off for comparison >purposes. I don't know how others would handle this, but perhaps >someone else will describe what they've done. Maybe there's a better >way. > >John Woram > > -- Dr. Duane F. Marble Professor Emeritus of Geography Telephone: 614-292-4419 Center for Mapping Fax: 614-292-8062 The Ohio State University 1216 Kinnear Road Email: marble.1@osu.edu Columbus, Ohio 43212 Two thoughts: "Time is Nature's way of stopping things happening all at once." "God invented space so that not everything had to happen in Columbus." _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "John Woram" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Digital Overlaying Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 11:13:41 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Duane, I guess I should have added that my examples illustrate a "cheap-n-dirty" technique that certainly wouldn't stand up in tax court. In all cases, it was simply to convey the sense of accuracy (or, lack thereof) between old and new maps of the same general area. I thought the accuracy of the ca. 1530 vellum chart compared to a modern map of Central America was amazing--although it certainly wouldn't solve any boundary disputes. John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Originating-IP: [67.40.143.30] From: "Lisa Davis Allen" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Disturnell Treaty Map Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 09:50:57 -0700 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jan 2003 16:50:57.0803 (UTC) FILETIME=[C794B5B0:01C2BA5A] Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Might I humbly add another. There is an aesthetic (or 'cartosthetic') importance as well. As an art historian who looks at mapped images, how the map looks can be off great persuasion. The scale, color, quality of line, etc. certainly can have an effect on the reader, and modify his/her approach or response to the embedded information. ...just an added factor to consider. Lisa Dr. Lisa Davis Allen University of Colorado Denver Department of Visual Arts ldavisal@carbon.cudenver.edu lda_cud@msn.com >From: "V+R Mayer" >Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >To: >Subject: Re: [MapHist] Disturnell Treaty Map >Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 17:54:38 -0600 > >There is cartographic importance, who drew/published a map first, with what >innovations. >There is historic importance, which influenced events the most. >Which is historically the most important is an open question, a very >subjective one. >..........I don't know. >RLM > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: DSloanRareBooks@aol.com > To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2003 5:00 PM > Subject: [MapHist] Disturnell Treaty Map > > > I suspect that I will be talking to myself again in this post, but >nonetheless.... > > Background to question: > > From Jack Rittenhouse's Disturnell's Treaty Map, p. 5: > > Few maps in United States history have had a role as interesting as that >of the Disturnell Map-the map that was attached to the Treaty of Guadalupe >Hidalgo at the end of the Mexican War in 1848. The signers of that treaty >thought they were making things simple by defining the line between the >United States and Mexico according to the boundary shown on a currently >popular map published by John Disturnell. But because there were errors on >the map, it took eight years of discussions, surveys, and the Gadsden >Purchase to straighten out the major disputes that arose. Part of the >disputed territory-the Chamizal area at El Paso-was not determined finally >until 1963, a hundred and fifteen years after the original treaty was >signed.... > > See also Lawrence Martin's essay "John Disturnell's Map of the United >Mexican States" in Ristow's A la Carte: Selected Papers on Maps and >Atlases. Washington: Library of Congress, 1972, pp. 204-21. > > The matter was complicated further because the "seventh" edition of >Disturnell's map was attached to the U.S. copy of the Treaty of Guadalupe >Hidalgo, and the "twelfth" edition was attached to the Mexican copy of the >Treaty. > > The primary maps in the Treaty Map sequence are as follows, in order of >publication: > > Tanner. A Map of the United States of Mexico.... Philadelphia, 1826. >Wheat, TMW 364. > > White, Gallaher & White. Mapa de los Estados Unidos de Méjico.... New >York, 1828. Wheat, TMW 384. > > Rosa. Mapa de los Estados Unidos Méjicanos.... Paris, 1837. Wheat, TMW >429. > > Disturnell. Mapa de los Estados Unidos de Méjico.... New York, 1846 >(plus over twenty subsequent variants: four in 1846, seven in 1847, four in >1848, four in 1849, two in 1850, and one in 1858). Wheat, TMW 507, etc., >etc.... > > Question: Which map is the most important historically in this >fascinating cartographical sequence? > > Tanner's 1826 printing with his fateful alteration of the southern >boundary of New Mexico west of the Rio Grande, which was faithfully >reproduced by White, Gallaher & White, Rosa, and Disturnell? > > White, Gallaher & White's 1828 version (straight from Tanner's 1826 >edition, but with English title, legends, and place names in Spanish)? >Lawrence Martin considered White, Gallaher & White's map to be the first >edition of Disturnell's map. > > The exotic Rosa version published in Paris in 1837 (a copy of Tanner's >subsequent 1834 edition, on the original scale and translated into >Spanish)? Streeter (233) described Rosa's map as "an example of an >independent plagiarism of the 1834 edition of Tanner's map." > > Or, one of Disturnell's twenty-plus versions? If so, which one? The >first printing, the seventh, or perhaps the twelfth? > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: DSloanRareBooks@aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 13:29:15 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] Disturnell Treaty Map To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In a message dated 1/12/2003 10:58:49 AM Central Standard Time, lda_cud@msn.com writes:


There is an aesthetic (or 'cartosthetic')
importance as well. As an art historian who looks at mapped images, how the
map looks can be off great persuasion. The scale, color, quality of line,
etc. certainly can have an effect on the reader, and modify his/her approach
or response to the embedded information. ...just an added factor to
consider.


True enough, and thank you for adding that consideration, Lisa.  However, I must ruefully state that, in my opinion, some of these pragmatic United States offerings like the Treaty map sequence leave much to be desired in terms of aesthetics, particularly when compared to the glories of earlier European maps.

Regarding the Treaty Map sequence, White, Gallaher & White in his version of the Treaty map ratchets up the aesthetic appeal by introducing a Mexican cactus with pads bearing engraved names of the individual Mexican states and territories (including Coahuila y Tejas and Nuevo Méjico).  Yet, if memory serves correct, this iconography may have been lifted from a Mexican engraver's work for the 1824 Mexican constitution.  The same cactus motif was used to good effect in Stephen F. Austin's celebrated 1830 map of Texas, and in that case, we have an example of a safe political statement of the time projected through cartographical iconography.

And who knows how a Mexican engraver in 1824 dreamed up the idea for a cactus designating Mexican states and provinces?  I recall that cactus motif from much earlier Mexican imprints, such as a seventeenth-century woodcut showing the Virgin of Guadalupe on a throne of Mexican cactus with Spanish royal arms in background.  What imagination! 
It would be fun to trace that cactus motif on maps of Mexico and its historical possessions.  I think I recall that there is a splendid example in Salazar's general map of Mexico in García Cubas's excellent lithographed Atlas (Mexico, 1858).

Yes, aesthetics, should not be forgotten when assessing a map.  I must concede that the engraved lettering in the title of Tanner's Map of the United States of Mexico is quite handsome and technically proficient.  But how pale this lettering seems compared to, for example, the allegorical frontispiece to Frederick de Wit's seventeenth-century atlas, depicting Atlas shouldering the starry heavens while standing atop a globe (showing Africa, Asia, and Europe). Or Mercator's elegant map of America with its exquisite mannerist decoration and rondels.  Still, if given a choice, I would take the Austin map with its fourth-hand cactus!  It would seem that Roberto Mayer makes a valid point in observing that importance can be subjective.  Perhaps importance sometimes boils down to individual resonance associated with one's local or regional history.

Lisa, thank you for teaching me a new word: "cartosthetic." X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 20:49:02 +0000 From: Doug Weller X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62 Christmas Edition) Personal To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Menzies' 1421 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Hi, Tuesday, January 7, 2003, 4:14:46 PM, Garman Harbottle wrote: > I have been reading with some interest the comments of the members of "maphist" on the revelation of Chinese contacts with the New World. Finally, I read the Hitt piece in the NYTimes. > Fortunately there is a book which is an excellent scholarly compendium of much of this material, see for example the chickens, in chapter 9 "Pre-Columbian Chickens in America" by George F. Carter, > who was Distinguished Professor of Geography at Texas A & M. The earliest reference to the chickens is in 1590. The book is entitled ""Man Across the Sea: Problems of pre-Columbian Contacts", Eds. > Riley, Kelley, Pennington and Rands. University of Texas Press (1971). ISBN 0-292-70117-9 All were professional archaeologists of note, as were many of the contributors.I recommend this book > highly: it came from a symposium of the Society for American Archaeology. Not 'of', but, according to the book, "during the national meeting of the Society for American Archaeology" in 1968. It has no endorsement from the SAA. The editors were not all 'professional archaeologists of note'. Pennington was Professor of Geography at Southern Illinois University where all the editors came from. > The data and refs assembled there are interesting, and a belief in pre-Columbian contacts coming from Asia need not depend on whether the 1421 voyage got to the Golden Gate or not. There is > actually a good bit of evidence coming from serious studies and it all makes interesting reading. The last page of the unsigned conclusions reads: "The present symposium, though it has not answered our questions, has by itself set up certain guidelines. It is clear that we must involve several disciplines --anthropology, botany, geography, history, and certainly paleontology and zoology. The experts in each field must acquaint themselves with both the data and the most current thinking from the other disciplines. Cross-disciplinary evidence must be closely scrutinized and weighed with great caution. Particularly, we must guard against ideas so imbedded that they are accepted as gospel without check or challenge. "In comparing complexes, particularly where style, type, or other variation in form is involved, we are probably going to need much more exact tools than the subjective ones now generally used (...) "With such guidelines we should eventually be able to reach the point where given pieces of evidence can be generally accepted, rejected, or at least assigned a level of high or low probability." The botanist commenting on the botany section, for instance, says "The presentation of evidence in this symposium leaves me with the impression that such contacts as may have occurred...were remarkably unproductive of botanical or agricultural effects. From the speed with which many New World crop plants were spread to and through the Old World and vice-versa after the Columbian discovery, it would seem that they would have been highly appreciated before that time." And goes on to point out that since any pre-Columbian contacts weren't very effective in modifying the food-producing aspects, they probably didn't do much to other cultural aspects. Its recent successor conference was at a Diffusionist venue, not an archaeological one. Doug -- Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated Submissions to:sci-archaeology-moderated@medieval.org Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Maura O'Connor" To: "'maphist@geog.uu.nl'" Subject: RE: [MapHist] Digital Overlaying Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 08:31:29 +1100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Michael and John You might also look at applying a GIS to rare map scans. This would also allow comparison with modern data for the area of the early map/s. I believe David Rumsey is now doing this with his material. Andrew Wilson, Dept. of Archaeology etc, University of Sydney has been doing it for some time, particularly with NLA scans. Andrew is giving the keynote presentation at the forthcoming conference of the Australian map Circle in 3 weeks time and I think addresses this in the paper. Yours sincerely Maura O'Connor Map Curator National Library of Australia CANBERRA ACT 2617 AUSTRALIA Phone : 61 2 6262 1280 Fax : 61 2 6262 1653 Email : moconnor@nla.gov.au > ---------- > From: John Woram[SMTP:john@woram.com] > Reply To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > Sent: Sunday, 12 January 2003 1:32 AM > To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > Subject: RE: [MapHist] Digital Overlaying > > Michael, > > I'm just generally interested in any techniques used to overlay one > map on another--via PC or paper. Here's two examples: > > http://www.galapagos.to/maps.htm#Anonymous > > The "Compare coastline" link in this entry opens a window showing a > ca. 1530 chart and a modern map. The coastline from the former can be > dragged down to the latter for comparison. Or, click the "demo" link > and it happens automatically. > > http://www.galapagos.to/maps.htm#Bowen > > The "Compare with modern map" link opens a new window with an early > 18th c. chart. The "Show/Hide" button overlays a modern map, drawn to > the same lat/long scale. > > I'm now just snooping about to see how others might handle the same > general idea. > > John > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "John Woram" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Digital Overlaying Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 17:20:30 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Maura, I wouldn't swear to it, but somehow I have the feeling that David Rumsey is just a teensy bit ahead of me on all this (give or take a light-year or so). As for the experiments on my own site, I think GIS technology would probably be overkill. There just isn't that much detail on the old maps to lend themselves to more than a casual comparison. But here's one where it might be put to use (But don't view over a slow connection--there are 11 images, each about 180K bytes): http://www.galapagos.to/tests/manhattan.htm The sequence begins with a late 19th-c. map of lower Manhattan. Then a satellite photo is dropped on top of it, rotated, trimmed, and faded out to reveal the older map underneath. John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Association by deception - or carelessness? Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:34:57 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714

Doug Weller's message of yesterday (Sunday) 12 January begins:-

 

>Hi,

 

>Tuesday, January 7, 2003, 4:14:46 PM, Garman Harbottle wrote:

 

>> I have been reading with some interest the comments of the members of

>> "maphist" on the revelation of Chinese contacts with the New World.

>> Finally, I read the Hitt piece in the NYTimes.

 

>> Fortunately there is a book which is an excellent scholarly compendium

>> of much of this material, see for example the chickens, in  chapter 9

>> "Pre-Columbian Chickens in America" by George F. Carter, who was

>> Distinguished Professor of Geography at Texas A & M. The earliest reference to the chickens is in 1590.  The book is >entitled ""Man Across the Sea: Problems of pre-Columbian Contacts", Eds. Riley, Kelley, Pennington and Rands.  University >of Texas Press (1971).  ISBN 0-292-70117-9  All were professional archaeologists of note, as were many of the >contributors.I recommend this book

>> highly: it came from a symposium of the Society for American Archaeology.

 

>Not 'of', but, according to the book, "during the national meeting of the Society for American Archaeology" in 1968.  It >has no endorsement from the SAA. The editors were not all 'professional archaeologists of note'. Pennington was Professor >of Geography at Southern Illinois University where all the editors came from.

 

And his comment on the essential distinction between 'of' and "during the national meeting of the Society for American Archaeology" shows how careless or deliberate distortion can lend authenticity, 'respectability', or whatever you will to such published statements.  For the sake of those who joined MapHist since the question arose last year - and for those who may wish to be reminded: the Gavin Menzies publicity machine (and, inevitably, the - mainly print - media) have continually tried to forge a false link between the *fact* that his lecture was given by hiring space in this Society's House and the *fiction* that this was an official RGS-IBG event.   Thankyou, Doug, for drawing our attention to another pseudo-logical statement!

 

PS: Our Librarian has now bought the Menzies book for GBP9.99, so at least we shall have it for reference purposes when we re-open in new Reading Room in Spring 2004.

 

Francis

f.herbert@rgs.org

http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives']

 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: ashley.bw@BTINTERNET.COM Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 12:16:41 +0000 (GMT) To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] 1755 Anti-Gallican map by Herbert and Sayer X-MAILER: talk21.com WAS v2 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id NAA21572 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 George Carhart wrote: “I am attempting to identify any copies of William Herbert’s and Robert Sayer’s Anti-Gallican map, 1755, that also have the original slip-case. can anyone help? ** The example sold in the Seibert Sale (which I am told Dr. Osher bought) is the only example dissected and laid on linen, with the original slipcase that I can locate. I know of another example, in a private collection, that was originally sold dissected, but is now without slipcase. Henry Stevens, in one of their catalogues (Rare Americana 19, item 308) offered an example on linen, folded into the original slipcase. I haven’t got the catalogue immediately to hand, but as the Seibert example came from Henry Stevens, I think it must be the same example. There are, I think, four states of the map plate; the side-panels are printed from separate plates, and may or may not be present. Henry Stevens, in one of their descriptions, refer to what would be a fifth state with the imprint dated ‘1.st Dec.r’, but I think this is a mistake, as there doesn’t seem to be enough room either to insert or delete the number. Although I’ve been working on advertisements for maps in British newspapers I’ve not got anywhere near the 1750’s – bogged down in the repetitive announcements from the first years of the eighteenth century – I have seen two announcements from ‘The Gentleman’s Magazine’, from the 1750’s, which I made a note of at the time. I had always assumed that The Anti-Gallicans Society was a belligerently anti-French organisation, perhaps with a motto along the lines of “The only good Frenchman is a dead one”, or some such. With that assumption, the announcements proved a bit of a surprise. They are: “FRIDAY 7. Admiral Vernon, alderman Janssen, and the rest of the committee of the anti-gallicans, met at the crown tavern behind the royal-exchange, to give their premiums to the maker of the best piece of English bone-lace; when the best prize of 10 guineas was adjudged to Mr. William Marriott, of Newport-Pagnell, Bucks. The principal dealers in lace in London were invited, and it was left to them to give their opinion, who allowed it the best ever made in England.” (Gentleman's Magazine, 7th August 1752). and “A quarterly committee of the Laudable order of Anti-Gallicans was held by the Hon. Edward Vernon, Esq; grand president, at the Crown behind the Royal Exchange, when it was agreed by the society to give the following premiums: For the best pair of men's needle-work ruffles, to be produced to the committee in the first week in May next, 5 guineas; to the second, 3 guineas; and to the third, 2 guineas. And for the best piece of English bone lace for ladies lappets, to be produced to the committee in August next, 15 guineas; to the second, 10 guineas; and to the third, 5 guineas” (Gentleman's Magazine, 10th November 1752). I had always assumed (probably wrongly) that such craftsmanship was associated with immigrant craftsmen particularly, for this period, French Huguenot refugees. If, as seems possible, the Society had a strong Huguenot base, then the thread referring to a religious context (‘Gallicanism’) may not be too far off the mark. My interest is really in the map, the Society’s only foray into map-publishing. I think that the map was probably a commercial enterprise by Herbert and Sayer aimed at the (membership of the) Society, and in keeping with the prevailing mood in England in 1755, rather than a political statement by the Society, but I guess I will never know. Ashley Baynton-Williams _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Garman Harbottle" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Association by deception - or carelessness? Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 11:45:00 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 4:34 AM
Subject: [MapHist] Association by deception - or carelessness?

Doug Weller's message of yesterday (Sunday) 12 January begins:-

 

>Hi,

 

>Tuesday, January 7, 2003, 4:14:46 PM, Garman Harbottle wrote:

 

>> I have been reading with some interest the comments of the members of

>> "maphist" on the revelation of Chinese contacts with the New World.

>> Finally, I read the Hitt piece in the NYTimes.

 

>> Fortunately there is a book which is an excellent scholarly compendium

>> of much of this material, see for example the chickens, in  chapter 9

>> "Pre-Columbian Chickens in America" by George F. Carter, who was

>> Distinguished Professor of Geography at Texas A & M. The earliest reference to the chickens is in 1590.  The book is >entitled ""Man Across the Sea: Problems of pre-Columbian Contacts", Eds. Riley, Kelley, Pennington and Rands.  University >of Texas Press (1971).  ISBN 0-292-70117-9  All were professional archaeologists of note, as were many of the >contributors.I recommend this book

>> highly: it came from a symposium of the Society for American Archaeology.

 

>Not 'of', but, according to the book, "during the national meeting of the Society for American Archaeology" in 1968.  It >has no endorsement from the SAA. The editors were not all 'professional archaeologists of note'. Pennington was Professor >of Geography at Southern Illinois University where all the editors came from.

 

And his comment on the essential distinction between 'of' and "during the national meeting of the Society for American Archaeology" shows how careless or deliberate distortion can lend authenticity, 'respectability', or whatever you will to such published statements.  For the sake of those who joined MapHist since the question arose last year - and for those who may wish to be reminded: the Gavin Menzies publicity machine (and, inevitably, the - mainly print - media) have continually tried to forge a false link between the *fact* that his lecture was given by hiring space in this Society's House and the *fiction* that this was an official RGS-IBG event.   Thankyou, Doug, for drawing our attention to another pseudo-logical statement!

 

PS: Our Librarian has now bought the Menzies book for GBP9.99, so at least we shall have it for reference purposes when we re-open in new Reading Room in Spring 2004.

 

Francis

f.herbert@rgs.org

http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives']

 

The symposium was indeed "during" the annual meeting of the SAA.  I stand corrected on this extremely important "Clintonesque" distinction.  Perhaps I should have said that the symposium was one of the many symposia "of" the overall meeting of the SAA. Would this be acceptible language?  As far as "endorsement" goes, the mere fact that the symposium took place "during" the SAA meeting, being simultaneously, one "of" their many symposia,  is, to my mind, "endorsement"  at a certain level.

 

I also stand corrected on Pennington. Not an archaeologist at all. I would have thought that his status as Professor of Geography might have carried some weight with maphist.

 

I stand by my characterization of Bob Rands,    Carroll  Riley and J. Charles Kelley as "professional archaeologists of note".  Professor Herbert may not have "noted" them but plenty of professional archaeologists have.  Now can we get back to the chickens?               Garman Harbottle

 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "V+R Mayer" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Disturnell Treaty Map Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 12:01:48 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
 "Regarding the Treaty Map sequence, White, Gallaher & White in his version of the Treaty map ratchets up the aesthetic appeal by introducing a Mexican cactus with pads bearing engraved names of the individual Mexican states and territories (including Coahuila y Tejas and Nuevo Méjico).  Yet, if memory serves correct, this iconography may have been lifted from a Mexican engraver's work for the 1824 Mexican constitution. ------------Correct

(...) 

"And who knows how a Mexican engraver in 1824 dreamed up the idea for a cactus designating Mexican states and provinces?  I recall that cactus motif from much earlier Mexican imprints, such as a seventeenth-century woodcut showing the Virgin of Guadalupe on a throne of Mexican cactus with Spanish royal arms in background.  What imagination!"

The cactus motif goes back to the legend of the founding of Mexico, earlier called Tenochtitlan. In their wandering to find a place to settle, the Aztecs were told by their priests that an eagle devouring a serpent while perched on a cactus would indicate the place. This image was drawn as a hieroglyph in prehispanic codices and is still today part of the Mexican flag and all official government documents.

Roberto L. Mayer

 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Organization: The Ohio State University Center for Mapping Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:10:22 -0500 From: "Duane F. Marble" Organization: OSU Center for Mapping User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 (nscd2) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf To: maphist Subject: [MapHist] CNN article on "Chinese Discovery of America" Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 See: http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/books/01/13/1421/index.html also has links to some images from the book, the publisher, and the "official" 1421 web site. -- Dr. Duane F. Marble Professor Emeritus of Geography Telephone: 614-292-4419 Center for Mapping Fax: 614-292-8062 The Ohio State University 1216 Kinnear Road Email: marble.1@osu.edu Columbus, Ohio 43212 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "tony campbell" To: "*Lismaps" , "*MapHist" Subject: [MapHist] Reminder: 'Maps & Society' lectures Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:55:13 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 'Maps and Society' Lectures =================== Lectures in the history of cartography convened by Tony Campbell (formerly Map Library, British Library) and Catherine Delano Smith (Institute of Historical Research, University of London). Meetings are held at the Warburg Institute, University of London, Woburn Square, London WC1H OAB, at 5.00 pm on a Thursday. Admission is free and each meeting is followed by refreshments. All are *most* welcome. Enquiries: +44 (0)20 8346 5112 (Catherine Delano Smith) or Tony Campbell < t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk >. The full programme is also available at < http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps/warburgprog.html >. TWELFTH SERIES Remainder of the 2002-2003 programme:- January 23. Professor Mike Heffernan (Department of Geography, University of Nottingham). From Russia with love? A Tsarist map of France and the Paris Exposition Universelle of 1900. February 13. Dr Jeremy Johns and Dr Emilie Savage-Smith (The Oriental Institute, University of Oxford). The Book of Curiosities: A newly-discovered series of medieval Islamic maps. March 20. Edwina Proudfoot (St Andrews Heritage Services, St Andrews). John Geddy's map of St Andrews (1580): A past and future framework. May 1. René Tebel (Doctoral candidate, University of Vienna). The signficance of the ship image on early modern maps from the 10th to the 17th centuries. May 29. Dr Daniel Connolly (Franke Humanities Institute, University of Chicago). The performance of history in the itinerary map of Matthew Paris. -------------------------- This programme has been made possible through the generous sponsorship of The International Map Collectors' Society, Jonathan Potter of Jonathan Potter Ltd., and Laurence Worms of Ash Rare Books. It is supported by Imago Mundi: the International Journal for the History of Cartography. Displays for each lecture, at the Royal Geographical Society, are arranged by Francis Herbert, Hon. F.R.G.S. Note that the Society's Map Room and Library are closed until late 2003, although both the Picture Library and Archives remain open. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Strebe@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:15:51 EST Subject: [MapHist] CNN's Review of 1421 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10577 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
Front page link on CNN.com, a rather more charitable introduction than other venues:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/books/01/13/1421/index.htm

The author, Adam Dunn, writes: "Menzies, a former Royal Navy submarine commander, is a soft-spoken and diminutive presence, not at all the obsessive eccentric he's been painted in the press."

I'm not sure why he would think that "soft-spoken and diminutive presence" must exclude "obsessive eccentric"... but that is a philosophical question best debated whilst soused.

Regards,
daan Strebe

Subject: Re: [MapHist] CNN article on "Chinese Discovery of America" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Cc: maphist , owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.4 June 8, 2000 From: "ahudson" Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:43:43 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on MHTMAIL02/MHT/Nypl(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 01/13/2003 02:44:14 PM X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 There was a HUGE advt. for the book in the NYT today. So his publisher is definitely doing the pr work for this thing. Alice Alice C. Hudson Chief, Map Division The Humanities and Social Sciences Library The New York Public Library 5th Avenue & 42nd Street, Room 117 New York, NY 10018-2788 ahudson@nypl.org; 212-930-0589; fax 212-930-0027 http://nypl.org/research/chss/map/map.html The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit. - Nelson Henderson "Duane F. Marble" > cc: Sent by: Subject: [MapHist] CNN article on "Chinese owner-maphist@geo Discovery of America" g.uu.nl 01/13/2003 01:10 PM Please respond to maphist See: http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/books/01/13/1421/index.html also has links to some images from the book, the publisher, and the "official" 1421 web site. -- Dr. Duane F. Marble Professor Emeritus of Geography Telephone: 614-292-4419 Center for Mapping Fax: 614-292-8062 The Ohio State University 1216 Kinnear Road Email: marble.1@osu.edu Columbus, Ohio 43212 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Subject: Re: [MapHist] CNN article on "Chinese Discovery of America" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Cc: maphist , owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.4 June 8, 2000 From: "ahudson" Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:43:43 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on MHTMAIL02/MHT/Nypl(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 01/13/2003 02:44:14 PM Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 There was a HUGE advt. for the book in the NYT today. So his publisher is definitely doing the pr work for this thing. Alice Alice C. Hudson Chief, Map Division The Humanities and Social Sciences Library The New York Public Library 5th Avenue & 42nd Street, Room 117 New York, NY 10018-2788 ahudson@nypl.org; 212-930-0589; fax 212-930-0027 http://nypl.org/research/chss/map/map.html The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit. - Nelson Henderson "Duane F. Marble" > cc: Sent by: Subject: [MapHist] CNN article on "Chinese owner-maphist@geo Discovery of America" g.uu.nl 01/13/2003 01:10 PM Please respond to maphist See: http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/books/01/13/1421/index.html also has links to some images from the book, the publisher, and the "official" 1421 web site. -- Dr. Duane F. Marble Professor Emeritus of Geography Telephone: 614-292-4419 Center for Mapping Fax: 614-292-8062 The Ohio State University 1216 Kinnear Road Email: marble.1@osu.edu Columbus, Ohio 43212 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "J.B. Post" To: Subject: [MapHist] Sherlock Holmes maps Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:12:17 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
   The December 2002 (v.6, #4) issue of FRIENDS OF THE SHERLOCK HOLMES COLLECTIONS (published quarterly by the University of Minnesota Libraries) has a couple of short pieces about Julian Wolff and his SHERLOCKIAN ATLAS.  Perhaps marginal, but still part of the history of cartography.
 
               J. B. Post
 
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 00:20:21 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: [MapHist] Cambridge History of Cartography Seminar Lent Term 2003 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from [Andy Merrills Subject: CAMBRIDGE HISTORY OF CARTOGRAPHY SEMINAR After a brief hiatus, the Cambridge History of Cartography Seminar has returned. The timetable for Lent term is as follows: Wednesday 15th January. Ann Fielding 'Images of Mongol Kingship in Medieval Mappaemundi' Wednesday 5th March. Tom De Wesselow 'Ambrogio Lorenzetti's Mappamondo' All seminars will take place in the Munro Room at King's College. Papers will start at 5pm. All Welcome. For further information, please contact Andy Merrills at ahm21@hermes.cam.ac.uk. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: ExJournal@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 17:24:32 EST Subject: Re: RE: [MapHist] Search term To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 66 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Many thanks for this most helpful lead. Carl Schuster _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Nick Millea To: carto-soc , liber list , lis-maps , maphist-l , maps-l Cc: nam@bodley.ox.ac.uk, samuel.fanous@bodley.ox.ac.uk Subject: [MapHist] Forthcoming exhibition in Oxford Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:28:12 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) X-Mailer: Simeon for Win32 Version 4.1.5 Build (43) X-Authentication: none Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear Colleagues, [Apologies for cross-posting: posted to carto-soc, liber-gdc, lis-maps, maphist-l, and maps-l] STREET MAPPING: AN A TO Z OF URBAN CARTOGRAPHY 3 February to 26 April 2003 Exhibition Room, Bodleian Library, Oxford This exhibition will consider the evolution of town plans as a cartographic genre, using examples from the Bodleian Library's map collections. Special attention will be paid to the mapping of Oxford itself, monitoring cartographic development from the sixteenth-century map of the city by Agas to the most recent products from the twenty-first century. There will also be the opportunity compare the works of celebrated street map publishers over the centuries, while mapping of urban growth will be portrayed through the development of St Petersburg from a desolate marsh to an imperial capital to commemorate the 300th anniversary of the city's foundation in 1703. There will be a selection of maps of streets that were planned but never built. Other maps from around the world will compare cartographic styles and conventions over the centuries, reflecting the considerable strengths of the Library's holdings. A catalogue will be produced to accompany the exhibition, available for sale in early March. For further details, please contact: Nick Millea Map Librarian, Bodleian Library, Broad Street, Oxford, OX1 3BG tel : 01865 287119 fax : 01865 277139 email : nam@bodley.ox.ac.uk homepage: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/guides/maps/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:56:04 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: Re: [MapHist] Forthcoming exhibition in Oxford Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 This brings to mind an uninteresting question. When did "cartesian numbering" of streets begin? I still remember the first time I went to London 35 years ago and was relating to friends how I had been thrown off that day trying to find an address on Gower St because I had not realized that street numbers were not "consistent" from one side of the street to the other. When my friends asked what I meant, I explained that in the US (I thought at the time) not only were evens one side and odds the other, the building across the street would be within 1 or 3 numbers and that numbers when up by 100 at a cross street. So that one had a consistent Cartesian plan. My English friend thought about it for a moment and said, Hmmm that could be really useful! (well, duh) ;-) Now this is not the case throughout the US. Boston can be almost as bad as London. In Boston, New York and elsewhere, cross streets do not cause numbers to jump to the next 100. My glib explanation for this was that it occurred in cities founded after Descartes! And indeed the more rectilinear parts of these cities were built then. But when did the very regular Cartesian plan start to be used? How far west do you have to get? (Going west being a rough measure of time!) After the Northwest Ordinance of 1787? (For the non-US, it caused the Northwest Territories (Ohio, Illinois, etc) to be surveyed into 1 mile squares.) What is the pattern in Canada? Does this very regular plan occur elsewhere in the world? Just a little something for a Friday morning. Take care, John Day > > >STREET MAPPING: AN A TO Z OF URBAN CARTOGRAPHY >3 February to 26 April 2003 >Exhibition Room, Bodleian Library, Oxford > >This exhibition will consider the evolution of town plans as a >cartographic genre, >using examples from the Bodleian Library's map collections. Special attention >will be paid to the mapping of Oxford itself, monitoring >cartographic development >from the sixteenth-century map of the city by Agas to the most recent products >from the twenty-first century. There will also be the opportunity >compare the works >of celebrated street map publishers over the centuries, while mapping of urban >growth will be portrayed through the development of St Petersburg from a >desolate marsh to an imperial capital to commemorate the 300th anniversary >of the city's foundation in 1703. There will be a selection of maps of streets >that were planned but never built. Other maps from around the world will >compare cartographic styles and conventions over the centuries, reflecting >the considerable strengths of the Library's holdings. > >A catalogue will be produced to accompany the exhibition, available >for sale in early March. > >For further details, please contact: > >Nick Millea >Map Librarian, Bodleian Library, Broad Street, Oxford, OX1 3BG >tel : 01865 287119 >fax : 01865 277139 >email : nam@bodley.ox.ac.uk > >homepage: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/guides/maps/ > > > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Organization: The Ohio State University Center for Mapping Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:35:00 -0500 From: "Duane F. Marble" Organization: OSU Center for Mapping User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 (nscd2) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Forthcoming exhibition in Oxford Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In some places, e.g., Japan, urban structures are numbered according to date of construction and exist inside named blocks! Rural addressing, even in the U.S., can be much more difficult. At one time in Puerto Rico the rural address was the ID of the nearest power pole (even if miles away...). John Day wrote: > This brings to mind an uninteresting question. When did "cartesian > numbering" of streets begin? > > I still remember the first time I went to London 35 years ago and was > relating to friends how I had been thrown off that day trying to find > an address on Gower St because I had not realized that street numbers > were not "consistent" from one side of the street to the other. When > my friends asked what I meant, I explained that in the US (I thought > at the time) not only were evens one side and odds the other, the > building across the street would be within 1 or 3 numbers and that > numbers when up by 100 at a cross street. So that one had a > consistent Cartesian plan. My English friend thought about it for a > moment and said, Hmmm that could be really useful! (well, duh) ;-) > > Now this is not the case throughout the US. Boston can be almost as > bad as London. In Boston, New York and elsewhere, cross streets do > not cause numbers to jump to the next 100. My glib explanation for > this was that it occurred in cities founded after Descartes! And > indeed the more rectilinear parts of these cities were built then. But > when did the very regular Cartesian plan start to be used? How far > west do you have to get? (Going west being a rough measure of time!) > After the Northwest Ordinance of 1787? (For the non-US, it caused the > Northwest Territories (Ohio, Illinois, etc) to be surveyed into 1 mile > squares.) What is the pattern in Canada? Does this very regular plan > occur elsewhere in the world? > > Just a little something for a Friday morning. > > Take care, > John Day > >> >> >> STREET MAPPING: AN A TO Z OF URBAN CARTOGRAPHY >> 3 February to 26 April 2003 >> Exhibition Room, Bodleian Library, Oxford >> >> This exhibition will consider the evolution of town plans as a >> cartographic genre, >> using examples from the Bodleian Library's map collections. Special >> attention >> will be paid to the mapping of Oxford itself, monitoring cartographic >> development >> from the sixteenth-century map of the city by Agas to the most recent >> products >> from the twenty-first century. There will also be the opportunity >> compare the works >> of celebrated street map publishers over the centuries, while mapping >> of urban >> growth will be portrayed through the development of St Petersburg from a >> desolate marsh to an imperial capital to commemorate the 300th >> anniversary >> of the city's foundation in 1703. There will be a selection of maps >> of streets >> that were planned but never built. Other maps from around the world will >> compare cartographic styles and conventions over the centuries, >> reflecting >> the considerable strengths of the Library's holdings. >> >> A catalogue will be produced to accompany the exhibition, available >> for sale in early March. >> >> For further details, please contact: >> >> Nick Millea >> Map Librarian, Bodleian Library, Broad Street, Oxford, OX1 3BG >> tel : 01865 287119 >> fax : 01865 277139 >> email : nam@bodley.ox.ac.uk >> >> homepage: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/guides/maps/ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________________________ >> MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >> hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >> The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >> the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >> Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >> the views of the author. >> List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > > -- Dr. Duane F. Marble Professor Emeritus of Geography Telephone: 614-292-4419 Center for Mapping Fax: 614-292-8062 The Ohio State University 1216 Kinnear Road Email: marble.1@osu.edu Columbus, Ohio 43212 Two thoughts: "Time is Nature's way of stopping things happening all at once." "God invented space so that not everything had to happen in Columbus." _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Originating-IP: [65.56.216.102] From: "michael zalar" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Forthcoming exhibition in Oxford Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:55:35 +0000 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jan 2003 14:55:35.0769 (UTC) FILETIME=[7DCAE490:01C2BE38] Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Here in St. Paul, MN it is mostly cartesian, but with one slight difference - the blocks run only 60 house numbers long, and not 100. So the first block houses run 2-60, cross the street and then 62-120 and so on. You get used to it after a while, but it is quite frustrating at first. Michael Zalar >From: John Day >This brings to mind an uninteresting question. When did "cartesian >numbering" of streets begin? > >I still remember the first time I went to London 35 years ago and was >relating to friends how I had been thrown off that day trying to find an >address on Gower St because I had not realized that street numbers were not >"consistent" from one side of the street to the other. When my friends >asked what I meant, I explained that in the US (I thought at the time) not >only were evens one side and odds the other, the building across the street >would be within 1 or 3 numbers and that numbers when up by 100 at a cross >street. So that one had a consistent Cartesian plan. My English friend >thought about it for a moment and said, Hmmm that could be really useful! >(well, duh) ;-) > >Now this is not the case throughout the US. Boston can be almost as bad as >London. In Boston, New York and elsewhere, cross streets do not cause >numbers to jump to the next 100. My glib explanation for this was that it >occurred in cities founded after Descartes! And indeed the more >rectilinear parts of these cities were built then. But when did the very >regular Cartesian plan start to be used? How far west do you have to get? >(Going west being a rough measure of time!) After the Northwest Ordinance >of 1787? (For the non-US, it caused the Northwest Territories (Ohio, >Illinois, etc) to be surveyed into 1 mile squares.) What is the pattern in >Canada? Does this very regular plan occur elsewhere in the world? > >Just a little something for a Friday morning. > >Take care, >John Day > >> >> >>STREET MAPPING: AN A TO Z OF URBAN CARTOGRAPHY >>3 February to 26 April 2003 >>Exhibition Room, Bodleian Library, Oxford >> >>This exhibition will consider the evolution of town plans as a >>cartographic genre, >>using examples from the Bodleian Library's map collections. Special >>attention >>will be paid to the mapping of Oxford itself, monitoring cartographic >>development >>from the sixteenth-century map of the city by Agas to the most recent >>products >>from the twenty-first century. There will also be the opportunity compare >>the works >>of celebrated street map publishers over the centuries, while mapping of >>urban >>growth will be portrayed through the development of St Petersburg from a >>desolate marsh to an imperial capital to commemorate the 300th anniversary >>of the city's foundation in 1703. There will be a selection of maps of >>streets >>that were planned but never built. Other maps from around the world will >>compare cartographic styles and conventions over the centuries, reflecting >>the considerable strengths of the Library's holdings. >> >>A catalogue will be produced to accompany the exhibition, available >>for sale in early March. >> >>For further details, please contact: >> >>Nick Millea >>Map Librarian, Bodleian Library, Broad Street, Oxford, OX1 3BG >>tel : 01865 287119 >>fax : 01865 277139 >>email : nam@bodley.ox.ac.uk >> >>homepage: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/guides/maps/ >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________________________ >>MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >>hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >>The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >>the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >>Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >>the views of the author. >>List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Al Magary" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Forthcoming exhibition in Oxford Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 07:50:14 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 And in San Francisco, the even numbers are mostly on the north and east sides of streets, the odd numbers on the south and west. Even in a nice Cartesian system, when a local asks for directions, the first question may be, What's the cross street? Al Magary _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:52:31 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: Re: [MapHist] Forthcoming exhibition in Oxford Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 >In some places, e.g., Japan, urban structures are numbered according >to date of construction and >exist inside named blocks! Rural addressing, even in the U.S., can >be much more difficult. At one time Actually, Japan is hierarchical with section of the city, prefecture, neighborhood (not real clear on this nomenclature) and then at the bottom of the hierarchy houses are numbered in the order they were built. Not easy for finding things if you are a stranger but if you lived there all your life probably pretty easy! This is actually similar to the form telephone numbers use to take: Country, Area/City, Exchange, then number the wires from the switching office. >in Puerto Rico the rural address was the ID of the nearest power >pole (even if miles away...). I had never heard of that one before! Neat! Take care, John >John Day wrote: > >>This brings to mind an uninteresting question. When did "cartesian >>numbering" of streets begin? >> >>I still remember the first time I went to London 35 years ago and >>was relating to friends how I had been thrown off that day trying >>to find an address on Gower St because I had not realized that >>street numbers were not "consistent" from one side of the street to >>the other. When my friends asked what I meant, I explained that in >>the US (I thought at the time) not only were evens one side and >>odds the other, the building across the street would be within 1 or >>3 numbers and that numbers when up by 100 at a cross street. So >>that one had a consistent Cartesian plan. My English friend >>thought about it for a moment and said, Hmmm that could be really >>useful! (well, duh) ;-) >> >>Now this is not the case throughout the US. Boston can be almost >>as bad as London. In Boston, New York and elsewhere, cross streets >>do not cause numbers to jump to the next 100. My glib explanation >>for this was that it occurred in cities founded after Descartes! >>And indeed the more rectilinear parts of these cities were built >>then. But when did the very regular Cartesian plan start to be >>used? How far west do you have to get? (Going west being a rough >>measure of time!) After the Northwest Ordinance of 1787? (For the >>non-US, it caused the Northwest Territories (Ohio, Illinois, etc) >>to be surveyed into 1 mile squares.) What is the pattern in Canada? >>Does this very regular plan occur elsewhere in the world? >> >>Just a little something for a Friday morning. >> >>Take care, >>John Day >> >>> >>> >>>STREET MAPPING: AN A TO Z OF URBAN CARTOGRAPHY >>>3 February to 26 April 2003 >>>Exhibition Room, Bodleian Library, Oxford >>> >>>This exhibition will consider the evolution of town plans as a >>>cartographic genre, >>>using examples from the Bodleian Library's map collections. >>>Special attention >>>will be paid to the mapping of Oxford itself, monitoring >>>cartographic development >>>from the sixteenth-century map of the city by Agas to the most >>>recent products >>>from the twenty-first century. There will also be the opportunity >>>compare the works >>>of celebrated street map publishers over the centuries, while >>>mapping of urban >>>growth will be portrayed through the development of St Petersburg from a >>>desolate marsh to an imperial capital to commemorate the 300th anniversary >>>of the city's foundation in 1703. There will be a selection of >>>maps of streets >>>that were planned but never built. Other maps from around the world will >>>compare cartographic styles and conventions over the centuries, reflecting >>>the considerable strengths of the Library's holdings. >>> >>>A catalogue will be produced to accompany the exhibition, available >>>for sale in early March. >>> >>>For further details, please contact: >>> >>>Nick Millea >>>Map Librarian, Bodleian Library, Broad Street, Oxford, OX1 3BG >>>tel : 01865 287119 >>>fax : 01865 277139 >>>email : nam@bodley.ox.ac.uk >>> >>>homepage: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/guides/maps/ >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________________________ >>>MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >>>hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >>>The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >>>the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >>>Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >>>the views of the author. >>>List Information: http://www.maphist.nl >> >> >>_______________________________________________________________ >>MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >>hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >>The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >>the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >>Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >>the views of the author. >>List Information: http://www.maphist.nl >> >> > >-- >Dr. Duane F. Marble >Professor Emeritus of Geography Telephone: 614-292-4419 >Center for Mapping Fax: >614-292-8062 >The Ohio State University >1216 Kinnear Road Email: >marble.1@osu.edu >Columbus, Ohio 43212 > > Two thoughts: > "Time is Nature's way of stopping things happening all at once." > "God invented space so that not everything had to happen >in Columbus." > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "John Weiss" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Forthcoming exhibition in Oxford Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:03:02 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 John Day wrote about numbering difficulties in Gower Street and pole number addresses in puerto Rico. In Trinidad, there are some locations where the address is given by the number of the power pole, but these locations would normally appear to be the poorest; however, last week, when visiting a friend in a highly respectable part of the island (before returning to cold London), the oddity of the numbering in his street was such that he always gives visitors the number of the nearest pole to ensure they find his house - the various developers of houses in the street each started their own sequences of numbers afresh, giving rise to confusion, particularly as the street is not only winding but also, I suspect, looped. For the latter, look no further than the streets in the Cadogan Estate in Kensington, London - apart from the multiplicity of Cadogan Square, Street, Mews, Place, Gardens and so on, the worst offenders, Cadogan Square and Cadogan Gardens are each not restricted to four sides of a rectangle but have extensions in every direction beyond the rectangles. In older parts of Europe you can find the Japanese style, or could in the past - I remember being in Prague when the Russians entered in August 1968, and where I had previously had pointed out to me the dual numbering system, blue numbers on the historical system and newer red numbers on a logical, contiguous system, you could see all the red numbers had been removed so as to make it difficult to find people wanted by the authorities. In addition, and this might be of interest to mapmakers, all the road signs we saw on our way out of the country had been painted over to read "Moskva" in every direction. To come back to Gower Street - it's a long street with terraces of narrow properties generally but with major interruptions here and there on both sides - University College and some institutions of the University of London strung along one side, University College Hospital and Bedford Square at different points on the other. Presuming there is or was a sequential numbering of properties, and remembering that University College and Bedford Square were there right from the beginning (and probably before the numbering) it's not surprising that facing numbers are out of kilter. Surely Gower Street is not unique in this respect? John Weiss ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duane F. Marble" To: Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [MapHist] Forthcoming exhibition in Oxford : In some places, e.g., Japan, urban structures are numbered according to : date of construction and : exist inside named blocks! Rural addressing, even in the U.S., can be : much more difficult. At one time : in Puerto Rico the rural address was the ID of the nearest power pole : (even if miles away...). : : John Day wrote: : : > This brings to mind an uninteresting question. When did "cartesian : > numbering" of streets begin? : > : > I still remember the first time I went to London 35 years ago and was : > relating to friends how I had been thrown off that day trying to find : > an address on Gower St because I had not realized that street numbers : > were not "consistent" from one side of the street to the other. When : > my friends asked what I meant, I explained that in the US (I thought : > at the time) not only were evens one side and odds the other, the : > building across the street would be within 1 or 3 numbers and that : > numbers when up by 100 at a cross street. So that one had a : > consistent Cartesian plan. My English friend thought about it for a : > moment and said, Hmmm that could be really useful! (well, duh) ;-) : > : > Now this is not the case throughout the US. Boston can be almost as : > bad as London. In Boston, New York and elsewhere, cross streets do : > not cause numbers to jump to the next 100. My glib explanation for : > this was that it occurred in cities founded after Descartes! And : > indeed the more rectilinear parts of these cities were built then. But : > when did the very regular Cartesian plan start to be used? How far : > west do you have to get? (Going west being a rough measure of time!) : > After the Northwest Ordinance of 1787? (For the non-US, it caused the : > Northwest Territories (Ohio, Illinois, etc) to be surveyed into 1 mile : > squares.) What is the pattern in Canada? Does this very regular plan : > occur elsewhere in the world? : > : > Just a little something for a Friday morning. : > : > Take care, : > John Day _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "John Weiss" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Forthcoming exhibition in Oxford Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:05:44 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In replying at such length, I went one better than the street numberers - I put two postings together in my mind; Duane Marble wrote about Japan and poles, and John Day about Gower Street. My apologies, at least for the confusion. John Weiss ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duane F. Marble" To: Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [MapHist] Forthcoming exhibition in Oxford : In some places, e.g., Japan, urban structures are numbered according to : date of construction and : exist inside named blocks! Rural addressing, even in the U.S., can be : much more difficult. At one time : in Puerto Rico the rural address was the ID of the nearest power pole : (even if miles away...). : : John Day wrote: : : > This brings to mind an uninteresting question. When did "cartesian : > numbering" of streets begin? : > : > I still remember the first time I went to London 35 years ago and was : > relating to friends how I had been thrown off that day trying to find : > an address on Gower St [ . . . . ] _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Forthcoming exhibition in Oxford Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:05:55 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 All these postings of non-Oxford/non-British street numbering systems may be of exceeding great import to urban historians - but will they help Nick and colleagues write his catalogue?! (Actually, they might: in that they may trigger a catalogue note about some Oxford peculiarities - other than certain persons I know there). Francis f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives'] -----Original Message----- From: Al Magary [mailto:al@magary.com] Sent: 17 January 2003 15:50 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Forthcoming exhibition in Oxford And in San Francisco, the even numbers are mostly on the north and east sides of streets, the odd numbers on the south and west. Even in a nice Cartesian system, when a local asks for directions, the first question may be, What's the cross street? Al Magary _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:18:11 -0800 Subject: [MapHist] Street-naming schemes From: Penny Richards To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.480) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In the realm of unusual American city street-naming/numbering schemes that "you get used to after a while"-- Scranton, Pennsylvania, has "Tree" streets running one direction (Olive, Locust, Apple, etc.), and the presidents in the other direction (ALMOST in order--with interruptions for Clay, Webster, and Franklin, and obviously not two Adamses; the second is represented by Quincy Ave.). Once you get used to it, it's a grid that helps orient you, in a city with lots of local relief. The streets in Redondo Beach, CA, have two odd features. First, around the site of the current high school, they were laid out in the shape of a LAMP--enlightenment through education being the intended message (the local newspaper published a detail from an early 20th century map of the area, showing the lamp in its planned form--the reality is far less obvious now, but if you know it's there...). Second, the streets that cross Pacific Coast Highway appear to be named for the 12 precious stones in the foundation of the New Jerusalem, as named in the biblical book of Revelations, again with some substitutions for practical purposes. So Beryl, Carnelian, Emerald, Onyx, Topaz, Agate, Sapphire, Amethyst--yes; mercifully, they left out Chrysolite and Chrysoprase; instead we have streets named Diamond, Garnet, Opal, Pearl, and Ruby, many of which are mentioned elsewhere in Revelations. Penny L. Richards PhD Research Scholar, UCLA Center for the Study of Women Co-editor, H-Education and H-Disability turley2@earthlink.net _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "V+R Mayer" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Forthcoming exhibition in Oxford Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:02:07 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 On my first visit to London I had to go to the City to get cash in exchange of a draft, that was before credit cards were invented (I just gave away my age) and had difficulty in finding the place with the street number I was looking for. I turns out that the street numbers continued into the building, up the stairs and then down again! Confusing? Roberto Mayer _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "V+R Mayer" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Street-naming schemes Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:12:53 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In Mexico City the streets in the various sections are named after American towns, Mexican towns, Spanish towns, cities from other countries, poets, composers, viceroys of New Spain, national heroes, writers, philosophers, famous or not so well known generals, etc. So when you read an address you know more or less what part of town it is in. This happy order breaks down when former towns which have been absorbed into the megalopolis repeat the names! Roberto L. Mayer ryvmayer@internet.com.mx ----- Original Message ----- From: "Penny Richards" To: Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 10:18 AM Subject: [MapHist] Street-naming schemes > In the realm of unusual American city street-naming/numbering schemes > that "you get used to after a while"-- > > Scranton, Pennsylvania, has "Tree" streets running one direction (Olive, > Locust, Apple, etc.), and the presidents in the other direction (ALMOST > in order--with interruptions for Clay, Webster, and Franklin, and > obviously not two Adamses; the second is represented by Quincy Ave.). > Once you get used to it, it's a grid that helps orient you, in a city > with lots of local relief. > > The streets in Redondo Beach, CA, have two odd features. First, around > the site of the current high school, they were laid out in the shape of > a LAMP--enlightenment through education being the intended message (the > local newspaper published a detail from an early 20th century map of the > area, showing the lamp in its planned form--the reality is far less > obvious now, but if you know it's there...). Second, the streets that > cross Pacific Coast Highway appear to be named for the 12 precious > stones in the foundation of the New Jerusalem, as named in the biblical > book of Revelations, again with some substitutions for practical > purposes. So Beryl, Carnelian, Emerald, Onyx, Topaz, Agate, Sapphire, > Amethyst--yes; mercifully, they left out Chrysolite and Chrysoprase; > instead we have streets named Diamond, Garnet, Opal, Pearl, and Ruby, > many of which are mentioned elsewhere in Revelations. > > Penny L. Richards PhD > Research Scholar, UCLA Center for the Study of Women > Co-editor, H-Education and H-Disability > turley2@earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:48:37 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: RE: [MapHist] Forthcoming exhibition in Oxford Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 >All these postings of non-Oxford/non-British street numbering systems may be >of exceeding great import to urban historians - but will they help Nick and >colleagues write his catalogue?! (Actually, they might: in that they may >trigger a catalogue note about some Oxford peculiarities - other than certain persons I know there). You guys (a gender neutral term as used by me) are great! What great addressing peculiarities! Michael, the increments of 60 I had never heard of. I wonder why 60? Biblical reference? Lots of even divisors? Duane, there is nothing special about Gower. It is just where it happened to me and it was then obvious that it was more or less true throughout the city. If you are standing in front of 72, 159 could easily be across the street whereas in Chicago you would know it was 73 or 75! Al, actually in Chicago people don't usually ask for cross streets or even street names! It is very common to here people talk in Cartesian coordinates, as in O, it is at 5100W, 4300N. My impression is that until recently there was much of England which really did not have any form of "addressing". I had many friends whose address was "name of house", street name, town. But I think a few years ago, there was a move to get rid of a lot of those. The hieararchical system in Hungary is interesting do you know more what the levels of the hierarchy are/were? Of course, Washington DC has an elaborate street naming scheme that supports the numbering: Numbered Streets run north/south, east/west streets start with letters of the alphabet (leaving out a few, like J and X) and then continues with 1 syllable words in alphabetical order, then 2 syllable and so on, not to mention the 4 quadrants and diagonals named after states. The use of trees, states, and other themes is fairly common. It seems to me that Salt Lake City has an elaborate one but I can't remember what it is, although (0,0) is at the Mother Church. Of course, I can't really complain much. I still send, UPS, or FedEx to my brother in my hometown addressed to: Kevin Day, Kinmundy, IL. That's it. Of course, in a town of 900 you don't need much more! Although the emergency 911 system is forcing that to change. They even have to name the roads in the country that never had names. But no one answered my question: When did the really regular naming start? Did I answer my own question, is it L'Enfant and Washington, DC? Take care, John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Strebe@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:25:33 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] Forthcoming exhibition in Oxford To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10577 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 (JJohn Day <day@std.com> writes:(B (J
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It seems to me that Salt Lake City has an elaborate one but I can't (B (J
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Regards,(B (J
daan Strebe(B (J
(B X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: cobb@pop.fas.harvard.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:18:25 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: David Cobb Subject: [MapHist] Hieronymus Cock Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Colleagues - I don't believe I've seen a reference to the following article: "Plotting imperial campaigns: Hieronymus Cock's abortive foray into chrography," by Nina Eugenia Serebrennikov. It is to be found in Nerderlands Kunsthistorisch Jaarboek 2001, Vol. 52, pp. 187-215. The majority of Prof. Serebrennikov's research was completed during an NEH summer seminar at the Harvard Map Collection. David Cobb *************************************************************************** David A. Cobb Tel. 617.495.2417 Harvard Map Collection FAX 617.496.0440 Harvard College Library Email: cobb@fas.harvard.edu Cambridge, MA 02138 HTTP://hcl.harvard.edu/maps ************************** VERITAS **************************************** _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: WJWarren@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 15:38:39 EST Subject: [MapHist] Street numbers To: Maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Western Avenue in Southern California holds at least a local distinction. At the north end at Los Feliz Ave. in Hollywood the numbering system starts at 2030 North Western Avenue. Odd one side, even the other descending as the street runs south, changes from north numbering to south numbering and proceeds for about 20 more miles to Summerland Ave in Palos Verdes. The last number is 29643 South Western Avenue. All numbers are not used, so there really aren't really 31,000 plus addresses, but there are a lot on this 25 miles long avenue. Bill Warren 1109 Linda Glen Drive Pasadena, CA 91105 (626) 792-9152 fax (626) 568-4945 wjwarren@aol.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: deelong@mail.gci.net Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:25:52 -0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [MapHist] Street-naming schemes Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Perhaps this is the time to ask - I was told years ago that in the U.S., at least, all streets in the downtown area of mining towns were laid out at 45 degree angles because mining claims are done that way from Discovery. The only two mining towns I know are Denver and Juneau and that is true of both of them. Anyone want to weigh in on this? Thanks in advance, Dee -- The Observatory,ABAA 200 North Franklin Juneau, Alaska 99801 deelong@alaska.com http://www.observatorybooks.com Our 25th Year _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Jens P. Bornholt" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Street numbers Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:02:27 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
I feel I have to put in my two bits: for those of you who might venture to come to Guatemala for the IMCoS Feb 2007 Symposium, you will find the system used here to be probably the most practical in the world. The city is laid out in the old Spanish manner in the form of a chess-board, then divided into "zones" and then avenues running north-south, streets east-west (in spanish: calles y avenidas) and then the houses numbered, eg.thus:
my office located at 4 avenida 13-11, z.10 means it's on 4th ave (going north-south) at 13/100 from 13th street (calle) in zone 10 of the city. And 13-11 means its going in the direction of 14th calle, so one knows exactly in which direction one would have to walk (or drive) to find a given address. Easy as pie ! I hear this was a Cuban invention (pre-Castro, I suspect). However, due to the many ravines around the city, on some areas (eg.zone 15) it has become confusing when all of a sudden an address might read "0 avenue 13-11".
Jens P.Bornholt
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 2:38 PM
Subject: [MapHist] Street numbers

Western Avenue in Southern California holds at least a local distinction. At
the north end at Los Feliz Ave. in Hollywood the numbering system starts at
2030 North Western Avenue. Odd one side, even the other descending as the
street runs south, changes from north numbering to south numbering and
proceeds for about 20 more miles to Summerland Ave in Palos Verdes. The last
number is 29643 South Western Avenue. All numbers are not used, so there
really aren't really 31,000 plus addresses, but there are a lot on this 25
miles long avenue.
Bill Warren
1109 Linda Glen Drive
Pasadena, CA 91105
(626) 792-9152
fax (626) 568-4945
wjwarren@aol.com
_______________________________________________________________
MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.nl
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "J.B. Post" To: Subject: [MapHist] Grid cities Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:25:06 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
   All this talk ("keyboarding"?) of city plans and grid systems require that I defend Philadelphia as an early example of the grid plan.  It existed on paper long before many streets were laid out.  While the grid existed, the current logical house numbering did not at first and it wasn't until after the consolidation of the City and the County in 1854 that things (house numbering, street names) settled into the more or less orderly system existing today.
 
          JBP
 
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Lutz Walter" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Forthcoming exhibition in Oxford Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 11:48:56 +0900 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 John, congratulations to your boy's-scout-skills! I've lived there for the greater aprt of my life (starting before credit cards had been introduced), and so has my Japanese wife. Still it takes us about an hour on average after we have arrived at the "neighbourhood" to find the house of an unfamiliar address , and no sensible Japanese would extend an invitation without handing over a detailed handrwitten map. Now, with such a map it may take another extra 30 minutes, depending on the skills of the draftsman, although sometimes they are quite reliable. To collect these maps would have been interesting, and, in fact, while writing this, I regret that I have not done so over the last thirty years. The founding piece of that collection would have been the one by a Kyoto University professor who's house I rented. It started at his office where we sat, and it ended at the correct key hole of his house's door (because there were two), all on one sheet. Cheers, Lutz ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Day" To: Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 12:52 AM Subject: Re: [MapHist] Forthcoming exhibition in Oxford Actually, Japan is hierarchical with section of the city, prefecture, neighborhood (not real clear on this nomenclature) and then at the bottom of the hierarchy houses are numbered in the order they were built. Not easy for finding things if you are a stranger but if you lived there all your life probably pretty easy! This is actually similar to the form telephone numbers use to take: Country, Area/City, Exchange, then number the wires from the switching office. Take care, John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 12:22:46 +0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [MapHist] Forthcoming exhibition in Oxford Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Interesting discussion on numbering of houses. In Korea the system is as such: The city is indeed the most important (actually first the country then the province) then the Ku, or district, then the dong, or village (if they need to translate it into English). These dongs are pretty big and divided into parts which have numbers, from there on the houses are numbered in the order they are build. Nobody however knows anything about how it works except the mailman, if you want to find a house and you only have the number, try to find the mail man! It's a very confusing system and the government started to give names to the streets and re-number the houses, according to the Cartesian system. However nobody seems to use it. If you take a taxi here, you have to know the dong, and preferably a big building in the neighborhood, otherwise you don't get anywhere. Henny (Lee Hae Kang) ----------------------------- Portal to all my sites http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Feel free to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) In Korean http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Dutch http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch Frits Vos Article about Witsen and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Korea through Western Cartographic eyes http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Hwasong the fortress in Suwon http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr The way a ship was rigged: http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/shiprigg.htm Old Korea in pictures http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan (1797) http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr Genealogy http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr Bulletin board for Korean studies http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/bboard _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 23:28:39 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: Re: [MapHist] Street-naming schemes Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 >Perhaps this is the time to ask - I was told years ago that in the >U.S., at least, all streets in the downtown area of mining towns >were laid out at 45 degree angles because mining claims are done >that way from Discovery. Dee, could you expound that a bit more. I don't quite understand it. Discovery of what? The other interpretation is that the Denver was laid out parallel to the South Plate and Juneau to the coast? >The only two mining towns I know are Denver and Juneau and that is >true of both of them. > Anyone want to weigh in on this? > Thanks in advance, > Dee >-- >The Observatory,ABAA >200 North Franklin >Juneau, Alaska 99801 >deelong@alaska.com >http://www.observatorybooks.com >Our 25th Year >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Harold Cramer" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Street numbers Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 08:40:23 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at pop016.verizon.net from [151.201.38.47] at Sat, 18 Jan 2003 07:39:58 -0600 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Hello: I had a friend who lived on a street about 2 blocks long. His house number was 11000 and something. Harold Cramer Pennsylvania ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 3:38 PM Subject: [MapHist] Street numbers > Western Avenue in Southern California holds at least a local distinction. At > the north end at Los Feliz Ave. in Hollywood the numbering system starts at > 2030 North Western Avenue. Odd one side, even the other descending as the > street runs south, changes from north numbering to south numbering and > proceeds for about 20 more miles to Summerland Ave in Palos Verdes. The last > number is 29643 South Western Avenue. All numbers are not used, so there > really aren't really 31,000 plus addresses, but there are a lot on this 25 > miles long avenue. > Bill Warren > 1109 Linda Glen Drive > Pasadena, CA 91105 > (626) 792-9152 > fax (626) 568-4945 > wjwarren@aol.com > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: anastasios@hell.com X-Sender: vze2nh6s@incoming.verizon.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 10:20:52 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Lewis and Clark story and map X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at out005.verizon.net from [151.204.132.9] at Sat, 18 Jan 2003 09:20:57 -0600 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 hello.

Posting for the first time. I am not  a cartographer--more like a poet who exceedingly grows interested in cartography with each day.

I thought all would be interested in a front page article on the New York Times.

Recalling a Storied Trek to Parts Unknown -- By TIMOTHY EGAN
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/18/national/18LEWI.html


--Anastasios Kozaitis, and if there are any Cartography 101 syllabi out there that someone would like to share with me, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks in advance X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "George S. Carhart" Organization: University of Southern Maine To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 10:55:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [MapHist] 1755 Anti-Gallican map by Herbert and Sayer X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id QAA15310 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 On 13 Jan 2003, at 12:16, ashley.bw@BTINTERNET.COM wrote: > The example sold in the Seibert Sale (which I am told Dr. Osher > bought) is the only example dissected and laid on linen, with the > original slipcase that I can locate. You are right Seibert copy is the copy that Dr. Osher bought and is the one that I am working on. > There are, I think, four states of the map plate; the side-panels are > printed from separate plates, and may or may not be present. Henry > Stevens, in one of their descriptions, refer to what would be a fifth > state with the imprint dated ‘1.st Dec.r’, but I think this is a > mistake, as there doesn’t seem to be enough room either to insert or > delete the number. Can you give me a referance to the changes in the four states of the map plate? > > Although I’ve been working on advertisements for maps in British > newspapers I’ve not got anywhere near the 1750’s – bogged down in the > repetitive announcements from the first years of the eighteenth > century – I have seen two announcements from ‘The Gentleman’s > Magazine’, from the 1750’s, which I made a note of at the time. > > I had always assumed that The Anti-Gallicans Society was a > belligerently anti-French organisation, perhaps with a motto along the > lines of “The only good Frenchman is a dead one”, or some such. With > that assumption, the announcements proved a bit of a surprise. They > are: > > “FRIDAY 7. > > Admiral Vernon, alderman Janssen, and the rest of the committee of the > anti-gallicans, met at the crown tavern behind the royal-exchange, to > give their premiums to the maker of the best piece of English > bone-lace; when the best prize of 10 guineas was adjudged to Mr. > William Marriott, of Newport-Pagnell, Bucks. The principal dealers in > lace in London were invited, and it was left to them to give their > opinion, who allowed it the best ever made in England.” (Gentleman's > Magazine, 7th August 1752). > > and > > “A quarterly committee of the Laudable order of Anti-Gallicans was > held by the Hon. Edward Vernon, Esq; grand president, at the Crown > behind the Royal Exchange, when it was agreed by the society to give > the following premiums: For the best pair of men's needle-work > ruffles, to be produced to the committee in the first week in May > next, 5 guineas; to the second, 3 guineas; and to the third, 2 > guineas. And for the best piece of English bone lace for ladies > lappets, to be produced to the committee in August next, 15 guineas; > to the second, 10 guineas; and to the third, 5 guineas” (Gentleman's > Magazine, 10th November 1752). Further to the subject of the Society of Ant-Gallicans. The following two entries are from the Gentleman’s Magazine, 1755, vol 25. June 1755: p. 280 , Historical chronicle, right column, Wednesday 4. “A new boat, coat, and badge, given by the Society of Antigallicans, in honour of the prince of Wails’s birth-day, were rowed for by six watermen, from Westminster bridge to the Hoop at Battersea, and won by Charles Bernard of Whithall.” July 1755: p.335 right column: Books Published in July “#16 The monthly reviewers reviewed. by an Anti-Gallican. 6d Sandby. This pamphlet, supposed to be written by Dr Free, charges the authors of the Review with being a set of ministerial writers, yet enamies to the King and country; with censuring books they never read,...” > My interest is really in the map, the Society’s only foray into > map-publishing. I think that the map was probably a commercial > enterprise by Herbert and Sayer aimed at the (membership of the) > Society, and in keeping with the prevailing mood in England in 1755, > rather than a political statement by the Society, but I guess I will > never know. I agree with you on your thought that Herbert and Sayer were the authors of this map and that they were simply selling to the anti-french mood in 1755. In the paper that I am working on I point out that their use of the indirect article “A” rather than the direct “The”, when referring to the society in the title, supports the theory that the map was not published by the society. George George S. Carhart Cartographic Associate Osher Map Library Smith Center for Cartographic Education University of Southern Maine P.O. Box 9301 Portland, Maine 04104-9301 USA (207) 780-4910 gcarhart@usm.maine.edu _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: ashley.bw@BTINTERNET.COM Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 17:45:31 +0000 (GMT) To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] 1755 Anti-Gallican map by Herbert and Sayer X-MAILER: talk21.com WAS v2 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 On 18 January 2003 George Carhart wrote: "Can you give me a referance to the changes in the four states of the map plate?" George, I've not seen any reference to states of the map, but I'll dig out my notes, and send them to you. Ashley Baynton-Williams _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 16:07:24 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: Re: [MapHist] Street numbers Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 >Hello: > >I had a friend who lived on a street about 2 blocks long. His house number >was 11000 and something. Harold, that would not be strange assuming that where the street fell in the grid. In a "good" grid system street numbers have nothing to do with the street or how long it is but where they are in the grid. So I would assume that your friend lived 110 blocks from the center of town along one axis! (I guess 110 because 11000 isn't evenly divisible by 60. ;-) Take care, John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: deelong@mail.gci.net Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 12:41:08 -0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [MapHist] Street-naming schemes Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 >>Perhaps this is the time to ask - I was told years ago that in the >>U.S., at least, all streets in the downtown area of mining towns >>were laid out at 45 degree angles because mining claims are done >>that way from Discovery. >John Day asks: >Dee, could you expound that a bit more. I don't quite understand >it. Discovery of what? The other interpretation is that the Denver >was laid out parallel to the South Plate and Juneau to the coast? > Discovery is the first claim filed when an er, um, discovery of gold, silver,copper, etc. is made. The following claims are filed at a 45 degree angle to allow as many as possible a share of the claim. Therefore, it would come naturally to miners to lay out a townsite by the same method. Hope this helps. Dee -- The Observatory,ABAA 200 North Franklin Juneau, Alaska 99801 deelong@alaska.com http://www.observatorybooks.com Our 25th Year _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 18:49:35 -0500 From: Bert Johnson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Street Address Systems Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Address oddities are perhaps more common in the US than our "cartesian" mindset would suggest. We live in Fairfax County, VA (suburban Washington DC) on a cul-de-sac called W. Court. Six homes on the court back onto H. Avenue, a busy local thoroughfare. All six homes are numbered as if we face the Avenue. No one can find us, including the US Postal Service. Our regular carrier can, but when there's a sub, our mail arrives late. Several times it has come well after dark and on one celebrated occasion it was tucked into our newspaper the next morning, because we have mail slots in the doors and had locked the outer door. (I give USPS credit for having come before 5 AM to deliver it.) When we order pizzas, taxis, or anything else, we use the Court address, but sometimes we can't. When we first moved in, our furniture delivery was late. I went looking for the van and found them about a quarter mile away, talking to their home office, verifying the address. No one knows the reason for this. I would theorize we were intended to be part of the Federal Witness Protection Program, but I'm not sure that program works this efficiently. Neighboring Arlington VA uses a different but nonetheless very effective means of generating local confusion. They have segmented streets. A street will begin, run a few blocks, and stop in a T intersection. A few blocks away, where the street would have been, had it been able to continue, the street will begin again, run a few blocks, and stop. This is quite common. I don't know the record for the number of segments, but several have six or seven. It makes it impossible to simply drive along the street until you come to the number you want. Knowing the nearest cross street is vital. This may be a relic of the Cold War. Had the US Capital Region ever been over-run, it would have taken several divisions of occupying forces just to hold Arlington, mostly because they couldn't find each other. Bert Johnson John Day wrote: >> Hello: >> >> I had a friend who lived on a street about 2 blocks long. His house >> number >> was 11000 and something. > > > Harold, that would not be strange assuming that where the street fell > in the grid. In a "good" grid system street numbers have nothing to > do with the street or how long it is but where they are in the grid. > So I would assume that your friend lived 110 blocks from the center of > town along one axis! (I guess 110 because 11000 isn't evenly > divisible by 60. ;-) > > Take care, > John > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: anastasios@hell.com X-Sender: vze2nh6s@incoming.verizon.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 22:39:28 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Street Address Systems X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at out006.verizon.net from [151.204.132.9] at Sat, 18 Jan 2003 21:39:29 -0600 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Has anyone visited NYC's borough of Queens? For instance, we live on 30-63 29th Street, meaning the cross-street is 30th Avenue. HOWEVER, there is a 30th Road, a 30th Drive, and a 30th Place to go along with 30th Avenue! People have the darndest time finding us. At 06:49 PM 1/18/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Address oddities are perhaps more common in the US than our "cartesian" >mindset would suggest. > >We live in Fairfax County, VA (suburban Washington DC) on a cul-de-sac >called W. Court. Six homes on the court back onto H. Avenue, a busy local >thoroughfare. All six homes are numbered as if we face the Avenue. No >one can find us, including the US Postal Service. Our regular carrier >can, but when there's a sub, our mail arrives late. Several times it has >come well after dark and on one celebrated occasion it was tucked into our >newspaper the next morning, because we have mail slots in the doors and >had locked the outer door. (I give USPS credit for having come before 5 >AM to deliver it.) When we order pizzas, taxis, or anything else, we use >the Court address, but sometimes we can't. When we first moved in, our >furniture delivery was late. I went looking for the van and found them >about a quarter mile away, talking to their home office, verifying the >address. No one knows the reason for this. I would theorize we were >intended to be part of the Federal Witness Protection Program, but I'm not >sure that program works this efficiently. > >Neighboring Arlington VA uses a different but nonetheless very effective >means of generating local confusion. They have segmented streets. A >street will begin, run a few blocks, and stop in a T intersection. A few >blocks away, where the street would have been, had it been able to >continue, the street will begin again, run a few blocks, and stop. This >is quite common. I don't know the record for the number of segments, but >several have six or seven. It makes it impossible to simply drive along >the street until you come to the number you want. Knowing the nearest >cross street is vital. This may be a relic of the Cold War. Had the US >Capital Region ever been over-run, it would have taken several divisions >of occupying forces just to hold Arlington, mostly because they couldn't >find each other. > >Bert Johnson > >John Day wrote: > >>>Hello: >>> >>>I had a friend who lived on a street about 2 blocks long. His house number >>>was 11000 and something. >> >> >>Harold, that would not be strange assuming that where the street fell in >>the grid. In a "good" grid system street numbers have nothing to do with >>the street or how long it is but where they are in the grid. So I would >>assume that your friend lived 110 blocks from the center of town along >>one axis! (I guess 110 because 11000 isn't evenly divisible by 60. ;-) >> >>Take care, >>John >> >>_______________________________________________________________ >>MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >>hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >>The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >>the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >>Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >>the views of the author. >>List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 16:15:07 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: Re: [MapHist] Street-naming schemes Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 >>>Perhaps this is the time to ask - I was told years ago that in the >>>U.S., at least, all streets in the downtown area of mining towns >>>were laid out at 45 degree angles because mining claims are done >>>that way from Discovery. >>John Day asks: >>Dee, could you expound that a bit more. I don't quite understand >>it. Discovery of what? The other interpretation is that the Denver >>was laid out parallel to the South Plate and Juneau to the coast? >> >Discovery is the first claim filed when an er, um, discovery of >gold, silver,copper, etc. is made. The following claims are filed at >a 45 degree angle to allow as many as possible a share of the claim. >Therefore, it would come naturally to miners to lay out a townsite >by the same method. > Hope this helps. > Dee Off list: I think I get it now. They divide things in eighths instead of quarters. It would be interesting to consider, but don't you think the explanation that Denver was at first on an angle to be parallel with the river (admittedly it isn't much of one) and then re-oriented to be square with the world? That happens in lots of cities. Look at San Francisco. With Juneau it looks like it is parallel to the ocean. Isn't that an easier explanation? Afterall, the blocks are still square! ;-) Not octagonal! But either way, it should be verifiable. Take care, John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 16:23:32 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: Re: [MapHist] Street Address Systems Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 People, This has been a great discussion! You have made my Friday and Saturday quite enjoyable. Some of the oddities in street numbering are really bizarre! But as far as sticking to the topic your a failure! ;-) I was trying to figure out early rational grids appeared. And only one person commented on that! I am not sure what but I think this comments on the psychology of what we find fascinating about maps. Much like everyone likes to talk about the best way to get somewhere! I posit again that it seems that the earliest grid plans were probably implemented in colonial North America. Not sure which one yet. And that the earliest truly Cartesian plan is Washington DC, but that might be wrong it seems to me that one of the southern colonial settlements (Savannah, or Charleston) might have done that earlier. Take care, John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: deelong@mail.gci.net Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 14:56:38 -0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [MapHist] Street-naming schemes Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 John, I lived in Denver years ago, and the Platte River is a joke. Actually, the old townsite, as I recall, had nothing to do with the river. Juneau was laid out along a very narrow beach and the hills behind it. Sorry for the clumsy explanation - should have likened it to cutting a pie, with the center the Discovery claim. Everyone gets a piece of it until the pie is totally sliced. What I wonder is why you find this idea hard to accept. Remember, miners were used to staking claims. They were not necessarily surveyors. Don't know the early history of Denver well enough to add anything, but in Juneau the army in Sitka sent over some men and officers to keep the peace. Don't have a date as to the first real surveys, but if you like I can find out. Thanks. Dee >>>>Perhaps this is the time to ask - I was told years ago that in >>>>the U.S., at least, all streets in the downtown area of mining >>>>towns were laid out at 45 degree angles because mining claims are >>>>done that way from Discovery. >>>John Day asks: >>>Dee, could you expound that a bit more. I don't quite understand >>>it. Discovery of what? The other interpretation is that the >>>Denver was laid out parallel to the South Plate and Juneau to the >>>coast? >>> >>Discovery is the first claim filed when an er, um, discovery of >>gold, silver,copper, etc. is made. The following claims are filed >>at a 45 degree angle to allow as many as possible a share of the >>claim. Therefore, it would come naturally to miners to lay out a >>townsite by the same method. >> Hope this helps. >> Dee > >Off list: I think I get it now. They divide things in eighths >instead of quarters. It would be interesting to consider, but don't >you think the explanation that Denver was at first on an angle to be >parallel with the river (admittedly it isn't much of one) and then >re-oriented to be square with the world? That happens in lots of >cities. Look at San Francisco. With Juneau it looks like it is >parallel to the ocean. Isn't that an easier explanation? Afterall, >the blocks are still square! ;-) Not octagonal! > >But either way, it should be verifiable. > >Take care, >John > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl -- The Observatory,ABAA 200 North Franklin Juneau, Alaska 99801 deelong@alaska.com http://www.observatorybooks.com Our 25th Year _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: deelong@mail.gci.net Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 15:06:51 -0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [MapHist] Street Address Systems Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Re: [MapHist] Street Address Systems
John wrote:
I was trying to figure out early rational grids appeared.  And only one person commented on that!  I am not sure what but I think this comments on the psychology of what we find fascinating about maps. Much like everyone likes to talk about the best way to get somewhere!

I posit again that it seems that the earliest grid plans were probably implemented in colonial North America.  Not sure which one yet.
And that the earliest truly Cartesian plan is Washington DC, but that might be wrong it seems to me that one of the southern colonial settlements (Savannah, or Charleston) might have done that earlier.
Dee: Gregorii Shelikhov sent the following instructions to Alexandr Baranov in 1794:
        "...plan the new settlement to be beautiful and pleasant to live in.  Have public squares for meetings and gatherings.  The streets must not be very long but wide, and must radiate from the squares. If you choose a place in the woods, leave the trees on the street in front of the houses and in the garden. The houses should be well separated, which will make the settlement look bigger."
(Tikhmenev, P. A., History of the Russian American Company Vol. 2, trans. Dmitri Krenov, Limestone Press, 1979 p 55.)
        So I would say Alaska can make at least a small claim. True, the town, Slaviia Rossia, was built any old how, and lasted only about nine years before the Tlingit Indians got rid of it and the residents, but the plans were there.
        Dee
--
The Observatory,ABAA
200 North Franklin
Juneau, Alaska 99801
deelong@alaska.com
http://www.observatorybooks.com
Our 25th Year
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "David Kalifon" To: Subject: [MapHist] Street Numbering Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 16:38:52 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 There is a logical explanation for short streets and large street numbers in Los Angeles County: The numbers roughly correspond to the distance from the center of the City of Los Angeles. As an example, consider my home. Though my street is three houses long (six houses in total, three on each side), my home's street number is 30604. Thus, the east/west oriented 30600 block that I live on is approximately the same distance from the center of the City as the nearby 30600 block of Pacific Coast Highway that runs east/west in my neighborhood. In both cases, the 30600 blocks are dozens of miles from the City's center. This methodology also accounts for the large numbers that Bill Warren noted on the rather lengthy Western Avenues. For those of you who are not familiar with greater Los Angeles, we have alot of lengthy avenues. To some degree the Los Angeles County system is Cartesian. The County system is frequently interrupted by scattered unrelated street layouts created by separately incorporated cities (i.e., other than the City of Los Angeles). These street layouts often have a rectilinear arrangement, the axis of which is oblique to the axis of the Los Angeles streets. Historically these misaligned layouts correspond to the independent development of land grants (or ranchos) from the Spanish and later Mexican authorities. The County system is also interrupted by mountains, rivers (dry most of the year) and other undeveloped terrain. David Kalifon, MD, JD Malibu, California 90265 Telephone: 310.457.7641 (home) or 310.785.5311 (work) Fax: 310.457.7641 E-mail: dkalifon@charter.net _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:21:06 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: Re: [MapHist] Street-naming schemes Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 >John, > I lived in Denver years ago, and the Platte River is a joke. >Actually, the old townsite, as I recall, had nothing to do with the >river. Juneau was laid out along a very narrow beach and the hills >behind it. Which is why I said what I did! But my aunt lived in Littleton for many years and there were a few times that the Platte overflowed its banks and once washed away the racetrack down the hill from where they lived. > Sorry for the clumsy explanation - should have likened it to >cutting a pie, with the center the Discovery claim. Everyone gets a >piece of it until the pie is totally sliced. > What I wonder is why you find this idea hard to accept. >Remember, miners were used to staking claims. They were not >necessarily surveyors. No, not hard to accept. Just that there are lots of places where a city starts off with grid on a angle because it is perpendicular to a river, a coastline, or even the railroad, so I thought that might be it. As you say the miner approach is as good a rationale as any other and more rational than many we have heard about in the last couple of days! ;-) The boundaries of Washington DC are on the diagonal, although the streets set square with the world. I guess the way to test your miner theory would be if lots in Juneau were originally laid out in pie shaped pieces. > Don't know the early history of Denver well enough to add >anything, but in Juneau the army in Sitka sent over some men and >officers to keep the peace. Don't have a date as to the first real >surveys, but if you like I can find out. Only if it is easy. This really did start out wondering about when the numbering plans started. I didn't really intend to collect stories about how weird it could get, but it certainly was interesting! Thanks for your time, (this is kind of fun, not unlike the recent paper on Flatland I did recently) > Thanks. > Dee > > > > >>>>>Perhaps this is the time to ask - I was told years ago that in >>>>>the U.S., at least, all streets in the downtown area of mining >>>>>towns were laid out at 45 degree angles because mining claims >>>>>are done that way from Discovery. >>>>John Day asks: >>>>Dee, could you expound that a bit more. I don't quite understand >>>>it. Discovery of what? The other interpretation is that the >>>>Denver was laid out parallel to the South Plate and Juneau to the >>>>coast? >>>> >>>Discovery is the first claim filed when an er, um, discovery of >>>gold, silver,copper, etc. is made. The following claims are filed >>>at a 45 degree angle to allow as many as possible a share of the >>>claim. Therefore, it would come naturally to miners to lay out a >>>townsite by the same method. >>> Hope this helps. >>> Dee >> >>Off list: I think I get it now. They divide things in eighths >>instead of quarters. It would be interesting to consider, but >>don't you think the explanation that Denver was at first on an >>angle to be parallel with the river (admittedly it isn't much of >>one) and then re-oriented to be square with the world? That >>happens in lots of cities. Look at San Francisco. With Juneau it >>looks like it is parallel to the ocean. Isn't that an easier >>explanation? Afterall, the blocks are still square! ;-) Not >>octagonal! >> >>But either way, it should be verifiable. >> >>Take care, >>John >> >>_______________________________________________________________ >>MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >>hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >>The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >>the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >>Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >>the views of the author. >>List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > >-- >The Observatory,ABAA >200 North Franklin >Juneau, Alaska 99801 >deelong@alaska.com >http://www.observatorybooks.com >Our 25th Year >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: deelong@mail.gci.net Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 16:38:57 -0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on the 1421 hoax Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear MapHisters, Take a look at this site for the best critique I've yet seen on the Menzies book. > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A972-2003Jan16.html > Dee -- The Observatory,ABAA 200 North Franklin Juneau, Alaska 99801 deelong@alaska.com http://www.observatorybooks.com Our 25th Year _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 22:14:39 -0500 From: george crossman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Forthcoming exhibition in Oxford Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Once when cycling in rural France we discovered that it was common to number the houses up one side of the street, around the end, and down the other side in the other direction. If the street continued but changed its name - as we frequently do here in Fairfax County, Virginia- the numbering system started over, beginning with 1 and running up, around, and back down the other side again. We finally found a local police station and got directions for the place we were looking for. We were told - laughingly - that it was deliberate, to confuse strangers (like us, perhaps). George Crossman Henny Savenije wrote: > Interesting discussion on numbering of houses. In Korea the system is as > such: The city is indeed the most important (actually first the country > then the province) then the Ku, or district, then the dong, or village (if > they need to translate it into English). These dongs are pretty big and > divided into parts which have numbers, from there on the houses are > numbered in the order they are build. Nobody however knows anything about > how it works except the mailman, if you want to find a house and you only > have the number, try to find the mail man! > > It's a very confusing system and the government started to give names to > the streets and re-number the houses, according to the Cartesian system. > However nobody seems to use it. If you take a taxi here, you have to know > the dong, and preferably a big building in the neighborhood, otherwise you > don't get anywhere. > > Henny (Lee Hae Kang) > ----------------------------- > Portal to all my sites > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr > Feel free to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) > In Korean > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm > In Dutch > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch > Frits Vos Article about Witsen and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch > dictionary > http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr > Korea through Western Cartographic eyes > http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) > Hwasong the fortress in Suwon > http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr > The way a ship was rigged: > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/shiprigg.htm > Old Korea in pictures > http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr > A British encounter in Pusan (1797) > http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr > Genealogy > http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr > Bulletin board for Korean studies > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/bboard > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Al Magary" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on the 1421 hoax Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 19:37:56 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 > Take a look at this site for the best critique I've yet seen > on the Menzies book. > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A972-2003Jan16.htm l Impressive summary critique. A question: with fleet of treasure ships numbering over 300, surely some/many would have sunk. Has Robert Ballard or other (treasure) seeker found any of these Chinese ships? Al Magary _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:26:51 +0100 Subject: Re: [MapHist] Review of 1421 review From: Philippe Forêt To: Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear MapHisters, Louise Levathes who has just reviewed _1421_ for the _Washington Post_ ("Global Crossing," WP, 1/19/2003) is also the author of _When China Ruled the Seas: The Treasure Fleet of the Dragon Throne, 1405-1433_ (Oxford University Press, 1994). Her own book received mixed reviews when it appeared, the most generous ones calling it a compelling story for undergraduates. Edward Dreyer in the _Journal of Asian Studies_ (54-1, February 1995, 198-199) noted that her entertaining and speculative book was neither an advance on our knowledge nor a critical analysis of Zheng He's voyages. _When China Ruled the Seas_ relied nevertheless on scholarly work which the author quoted. Paul Wheatley, Paul Pelliot, and J.J.L. Duyvendak are among the major scholars who have studied Ming materials related to the Chinese expansion abroad. The most important, complete, and easiest to locate source of information on the Chinese naval expeditions is a translation of Ma Huan's _Ying-yai Shenglan, The Overall Survey of the Ocean's Shores(1433)_. Ma Huan was one of Zheng He's interpreters. J.V.G. Mills introduced, translated and annotated this book, which the Hakluyt Society published in 1970 and White Lotus, Bangkok, reprinted in 1997. Mills' introduction to Zheng He's travels and Ma Huan's book takes no fewer than 66 pages. MapHisters may enjoy the opening sentence of Ma Huan's foreword of 1416: "I once looked at (a book called) _A Record of the Islands and their Barbarians_ (_Daoyi zhi_ by Wang Dayuan, 1350), which recorded variations of season and climate, and differences in topography and in peoples. I was surprised and said 'How can there be such dissimilarities in the world?'" (Mills, 69) One of these dissimilarities concerns Zheng He's maps. Louise Levathes asserts in her _Washington Post_ review that: "The 21-foot-long navigation chart that Zheng He had on board during his voyages is bordered on the west by East Africa and on the east by Japan. The northern boundaries are India and the Arabian peninsula and the southernmost point on the map is Timor in Indonesia." I believe that we have no contemporary evidence on the length, orientation and details of the navigational chart(s) that Zheng He had on board. It could be that Louise Levathes is referring to the Mao Kun map, also called _Wubei zhi_ chart, which Mills carefully analyzed in Appendix 2 of _Ying-yai Sheng-lan_, 236-302. Mills discussed the provenance of the map, translated the sailing directions, identified the place names, and eventually called it "a patchwork of maplets, each having its own orientation and scale." The appendix also reproduces the map sheet that shows the Arabian Sea between the African coast, Aden and Sri Lanka (Mills, 290-291). The Mao Kun map, actually an atlas of forty sheets, forms the 240th volume of _Wubei zhi_, an encyclopedia which was offered to the emperor in 1628. It is therefore entirely separate from _Ying-yai Sheng-lan_. The map sheets together measure 220 inch long and 8 inch wide. They include data related to 1409 and 1425, but we cannot infer from them that the atlas was made then. Mao Kun (1511-1601), who directed the ministry of war and was the grandfather of Mao Yuanyi, the author of _Wubei zhi_, could have compiled the atlas much later. The Mao Kun map has no precise or constant scale and orientation, and does not show boundaries. The sheets are connected by the horizontal dotted lines of the routes that the fleets followed on their outbound voyage. The first sheet shows the suburb of Nanjing and the last one the straits and island of Ormuz (Hulumosi). I have not seen Japan (or Korea) on the Mao Kun map. We cannot imagine that Admiral Zheng He's fleets repeatedly crossed the Indian Ocean without maps, pilots, compasses, and sea routes instructions. Still, I do not know what supports Levathes' notion that, during his voyages, Zheng He had at his disposal a framed map that covered the area from East Africa to Japan and the Arabian Peninsula to Timor. Best regards, Philippe Foret pforet@bluewin.ch Swiss NSF Research Fellow Institute of Cartography Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, Zurich _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "John Weiss" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Street-naming schemes Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:32:35 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 John Day wrote: : [ . . . . ] : Thanks for your time, (this is kind of fun, not unlike the recent : paper on Flatland I did recently) I was interested to pick up the word Flatland, and as this awakes childhood memories of early readings in topology I wonder if your paper relates to such things, and if so can it be seen on the web? John Weiss London _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:24:08 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: Re: [MapHist] Street-naming schemes Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 >John Day wrote: >: [ . . . . ] >: Thanks for your time, (this is kind of fun, not unlike the recent >: paper on Flatland I did recently) > >I was interested to pick up the word Flatland, and as this awakes childhood >memories of early readings in topology I wonder if your paper relates to >such things, and if so can it be seen on the web? It does relate to these things. I was prompted by Ian Stewart's recent book An Annotated Flatland to resurrect some "work" I did 25 years ago. Stewart notes in his book that people have conjectured that Flatlanders would have limited nervous systems since wires could cross. Many years ago, I was in the lab of Heniz Von Forester and noticed a masters thesis on this topic. I immediately realized that the premise was wrong and that wires could cross. So one evening I took an hour and jotted down the answer. Now this never seemed to be terribly earth-shattering so I never bothered to publish it. Actually, it is definitely one of those cases of once you see the answer it is obvious. And actually kind of amusing that a result from one part of mathematics has such an application to another. I recently resurrected the paper added a little to it and after an exchange of emails, sent it to Stewart. But he has been a bit tied up with family issues, so I have not heard back from yet. If you like I can send you a Microsoft Word version of the paper. But it is a bit like this street naming thing. Interesting but not really all that important. (Well, actually it is. One of my other interests is in theory of addressing for networks. So I am interested in the nature of topologically dependent names.) Take care, John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:24:08 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: Re: [MapHist] Street-naming schemes List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 >John Day wrote: >: [ . . . . ] >: Thanks for your time, (this is kind of fun, not unlike the recent >: paper on Flatland I did recently) > >I was interested to pick up the word Flatland, and as this awakes childhood >memories of early readings in topology I wonder if your paper relates to >such things, and if so can it be seen on the web? It does relate to these things. I was prompted by Ian Stewart's recent book An Annotated Flatland to resurrect some "work" I did 25 years ago. Stewart notes in his book that people have conjectured that Flatlanders would have limited nervous systems since wires could cross. Many years ago, I was in the lab of Heniz Von Forester and noticed a masters thesis on this topic. I immediately realized that the premise was wrong and that wires could cross. So one evening I took an hour and jotted down the answer. Now this never seemed to be terribly earth-shattering so I never bothered to publish it. Actually, it is definitely one of those cases of once you see the answer it is obvious. And actually kind of amusing that a result from one part of mathematics has such an application to another. I recently resurrected the paper added a little to it and after an exchange of emails, sent it to Stewart. But he has been a bit tied up with family issues, so I have not heard back from yet. If you like I can send you a Microsoft Word version of the paper. But it is a bit like this street naming thing. Interesting but not really all that important. (Well, actually it is. One of my other interests is in theory of addressing for networks. So I am interested in the nature of topologically dependent names.) Take care, John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:24:08 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: Re: [MapHist] Street-naming schemes List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 >John Day wrote: >: [ . . . . ] >: Thanks for your time, (this is kind of fun, not unlike the recent >: paper on Flatland I did recently) > >I was interested to pick up the word Flatland, and as this awakes childhood >memories of early readings in topology I wonder if your paper relates to >such things, and if so can it be seen on the web? It does relate to these things. I was prompted by Ian Stewart's recent book An Annotated Flatland to resurrect some "work" I did 25 years ago. Stewart notes in his book that people have conjectured that Flatlanders would have limited nervous systems since wires could cross. Many years ago, I was in the lab of Heniz Von Forester and noticed a masters thesis on this topic. I immediately realized that the premise was wrong and that wires could cross. So one evening I took an hour and jotted down the answer. Now this never seemed to be terribly earth-shattering so I never bothered to publish it. Actually, it is definitely one of those cases of once you see the answer it is obvious. And actually kind of amusing that a result from one part of mathematics has such an application to another. I recently resurrected the paper added a little to it and after an exchange of emails, sent it to Stewart. But he has been a bit tied up with family issues, so I have not heard back from yet. If you like I can send you a Microsoft Word version of the paper. But it is a bit like this street naming thing. Interesting but not really all that important. (Well, actually it is. One of my other interests is in theory of addressing for networks. So I am interested in the nature of topologically dependent names.) Take care, John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "John Weiss" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Street-naming schemes Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 23:11:58 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 To John Day I would welcome a copy of the paper - try sending it to john.weiss@virgin.net but if that bounces use john.weiss@mcnish-weiss.co.uk - I have not been able to write directly to you because it seems your ISP objected to the word 'virgin' in my ISP's name. John Weiss ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Day" To: Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 4:24 PM Subject: Re: [MapHist] Street-naming schemes : >John Day wrote: : >: [ . . . . ] : >: Thanks for your time, (this is kind of fun, not unlike the recent : >: paper on Flatland I did recently) : > : >I was interested to pick up the word Flatland, and as this awakes childhood : >memories of early readings in topology I wonder if your paper relates to : >such things, and if so can it be seen on the web? : : It does relate to these things. I was prompted by Ian Stewart's : recent book An Annotated Flatland to resurrect some "work" I did 25 : years ago. Stewart notes in his book that people have conjectured : [ . . . ] : If you like I can send you a Microsoft Word version of the paper. : [ . . . ] : Take care, : John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: anastasios@hell.com X-Sender: vze2nh6s@incoming.verizon.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 07:16:52 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] the madness of Merriwether? X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [151.204.137.232] at Tue, 21 Jan 2003 06:16:54 -0600 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/21/opinion/21HALL.html _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:00:37 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: [MapHist] 'Oldest star chart' found Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Do not sent html-encoded e-mails. They cannot be distrubuted automatically and will be bounced by the program to me. Peter From: "Schulenburg, Alexander" Subject: 'Oldest star chart' found Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 12:54:31 -0000 The following item of news from the BBC website may be of interest: "The oldest image of a star pattern, that of the famous constellation of Orion, has been recognised on an ivory tablet some 32,500 years old." For the full text see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2679675.stm Regards, Alexander Schulenburg _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Garman Harbottle" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] 'Oldest star chart' found Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:28:27 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I had a look at the very nice carving, looking perhaps Paleolithic all right. One can question however whether it contains any reference to the starry sky. If one looks, as many of us have done, at the actual patterns of the stars in a constellation compared to the images that the Greeks and Romans used to name the constellations ("Scorpio" "Gemini" "Cassiopeiea" etc.) then you can see what a stretch of the imagination was involved. So now, an image carved on a tusk, resembles the Greek or Roman idea for the image given by the starry pattern, but predates it by 30 millenia or so and becomes a "star chart" ?? Give me a break! ................Garman Harbottle ----- Original Message ----- From: "by way of Peter van der Krogt " To: Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 8:00 AM Subject: [MapHist] 'Oldest star chart' found > Do not sent html-encoded e-mails. They cannot be distrubuted automatically > and will be bounced by the program to me. Peter > > From: "Schulenburg, Alexander" > Subject: 'Oldest star chart' found > Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 12:54:31 -0000 > > The following item of news from the BBC website may be of interest: > > "The oldest image of a star pattern, that of the famous constellation of > Orion, has been recognised on an ivory tablet some 32,500 years old." > > For the full text see > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2679675.stm > > Regards, > Alexander Schulenburg > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: shkurkin@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 12:52:05 -0800 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Vlad Shkurkin Subject: Re: [MapHist] 'Oldest star chart' found Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear MapHisters,

Perhaps the image which is found on the site depicting acupuncture meridians
http://www.acupuncturedoc.com/Acupuncture%20Meridians.htm
was inspired by the rows of notches on the ivory tablet.

This exercise is comparable to finding patterns on the markings inside of
non-see-through envelopes or in color blindness charts.

Cheers,

Vlad Shkurkin
6025 Rose Arbor Ave
San Pablo CA 94806-4147
30 km NE of San Francisco
(510) 232-7742,  fax 236-7050
http://www.utahice.com/articles.htm X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Al Magary" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] 'Oldest star chart' found Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:34:48 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I have no online references for this, but today's astronomers--even backyard ones--have computer programs that chart the positions of various well-known stars in times past, so it would be easy to see what the constellation Orion looked like 32,500 years ago. The movement of the stars is slow by the measure of our lifetimes but is fast relative to recorded history. That's why we in the 21st century have difficult matching many constellations to supposed gods and creatures. Some have departed from an ancient pattern so much that popular names have changed--e.g., Ursa Major (Great Bear) is more recognizable as the Big Dipper. Al Magary _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: DSloanRareBooks@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:22:25 EST Subject: [MapHist] Catalogue announcement To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 PLEASE DO NOT USE YOUR EMAIL REPLY FUNCTION TO RESPOND TO THIS ANNOUNCEMENT. MAKE SURE ANY MESSAGE COMES TO rarebooks@sloanrarebooks.com AND IS NOT SENT TO THE ENTIRE LIST.

Dorothy Sloan-Rare Books is pleased to announce two auctions to be conducted in San Francisco, at the Society of California Pioneers, on Wednesday, February 5, 2003.

Auction 12:  The Zamorano 80: A Complete Collection of the First Editions of the Zamorano 80, a Selection of Distinguished California Books, including some books with cartographic interest.

Auction 13:  A Few Good Maps & Manuscripts Touching upon the History of Texas, California, the Southwest, Mexico & The Borderlands.

Both catalogues may be viewed online at our website: www.sloanrarebooks.com

Dorothy Sloan-Rare Books, Inc.
Box 49670
Austin, Texas 78765-9670
Phone 512-477-8442 Fax 512-477-8602
E-mail: rarebooks@sloanrarebooks.com
Web: www.sloanrarebooks.com
Dorothy Sloan, Texas Auctioneers License #10210
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: KitTheMap@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:46:36 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] 'Oldest star chart' found To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows DE sub 10501 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Sorry if this has already been discussed. Has anyone read the book by a German (Austrian) person who considers that the star signs have nothing to do with the animals at all. He reckons each constellation is actually a map and has plotted some of these against coastlines.
I must agree that I find the animals idea difficult to swallow. The names are easy to remember but they star formations are nothing like the animals unless you really have an atristic bent.
However, the idea that the stars in such a formation can be assigned to coastlines is, to me, just as likely.
Sorry I've lost the name of the writer and I'd like to order the book!
Kit Batten X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: rick.laprairie@mnr.gov.on.ca To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Ontario Crown Land Use Atlas Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:14:01 -0500 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 For those in the group who may be interested, the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources recently released an interactive web based trial model "Crown Land Use Atlas" for public inspection. The initial release of the Atlas contains land use direction for Crown (public) lands in the central and mid-northern areas of Ontario, plus Manitoulin Island and several other islands in the north channel of Georgian Bay, and the Great Lakes waters. Over time the Atlas will be expanded to cover Crown lands in all of Ontario. After the inspection period, the Atlas will become the official source of land use direction for Crown lands in the area it covers. The Atlas can be accessed via the Featured Links at: http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/MNR/ or at http://crownlanduseatlas.mnr.gov.on.ca/ If you are not familiar with Ontario and want to see how the system works, try looking for maps and land use information on Algonquin Park or the French River, which was an early exploration and fur trading route. If you have any comments, I am sure the project team would appreciate your views. Rick Laprairie Policy and Planning Coordination Branch Ministry of Natural Resources Email: rick.laprairie@mnr.gov.on.ca _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2.4011 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:36:43 -0500 Subject: Re: [MapHist] 'Oldest star chart' found From: Helen Glazer To: Maphist Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 On 1/22/03 12:46 PM, "KitTheMap@aol.com" wrote: > Sorry if this has already been discussed. Has anyone read the book by a German > (Austrian) person who considers that the star signs have nothing to do with > the animals at all. He reckons each constellation is actually a map and has > plotted some of these against coastlines. > I must agree that I find the animals idea difficult to swallow. The names are > easy to remember but they star formations are nothing like the animals unless > you really have an atristic bent. > However, the idea that the stars in such a formation can be assigned to > coastlines is, to me, just as likely. > Sorry I've lost the name of the writer and I'd like to order the book! > Kit Batten > Don¹t know the work you¹re referring to. However, I¹ve thought about this business of constellation groupings quite a bit in the other half of my work life, which is as a sculptor and painter, and done quite a bit of reading on the topic. In the 1990s I did a series of paintings, including two murals, based on constellation figures as seen by different cultures. I became interested in the impulse to map, name and tell stories and otherwise make sense of the abstraction which is the night sky, which, as you say, doesn¹t really LOOK like anything, and is so random that it takes a lot of practice to recognize constellations even when you have a star map right in front of you. The constellation North Americans call The Big Dipper, for example, has attracted many documented names and legends around the world. Different cultures have found different ways to ³connect the dots.² The East Coast Indians included parts of other neighboring constellations in an elaborate myth of seasonal change and renewal concerning a bear. Some cultures made note of the ³double star² in the Dipper¹s handle and assigned meaning to that. I found a reference to an Arab legend that includes the lower part of the Ursa Major constellation (of which the Dipper is the upper part) along with the constellation Leo below it. Meanwhile, look at a traditional Chinese star map and you see a very different arrangement than the one we¹re used to in the West. What all these groupings have in common, is that they each reflect the concerns of the culture in which they arose, the relationship between events in the sky and was happening on earth (e.g. seasonal changes) and the environment people lived in (e.g. what terrain and wildlife they saw around them). An excellent book about this is ³Beyond the Blue Horizon: Myths & Legends of the Sun, Stars, Moon & Planets² by E.C. Krupp (Oxford Univ. Press: 1991). As someone concerned with visual memory as a professional necessity, I¹m also inclined to think that finding certain groupings and assigning a pictorial name to them was a practical way to orient oneself and locate them at night for navigational and calendar purposes. Without coming up with some kind of pattern that you can remember, how are you going to find them again? Especially if you were living in a pre-literate culture and didn¹t have a star chart around the house? So, in response to the message above about coastlines -- sure you could probably superimpose them on the stars and see areas where they coincide, but they are just as abstract as the stars themselves, and seem impractical as a mnemonic device X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:19:35 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: [MapHist] NZ review of 1421 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 The attachment is on the webpage: http://www.maphist.nl/discpapers.html, Peter. Subject: NZ review of 1421 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:43:19 +1300 From: "John Robson" Michael King is one of New Zealand's foremost historians and he has just had a review of 1421 published in a local weekly magazine (the New Zealand Listener) He discusses those bits of the book that deal with New Zealand. Given the recent communications on this list I thought others would be interested in the review, which I include as an attachment. John Robson Map Librarian University of Waikato. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:57:09 -0500 From: Overlee Farm Books X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Menzies Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I have never considered myself, nor have I ever been accused of being a conspiracy theorist. However, I cannot believe that Menzies would have ever received as much publicity as he has received on this discussion list if someone hadn't been put up to sending the original notice. Martin Torodash _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Al Magary" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Menzies Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:15:25 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 > I have never considered myself, nor have I ever been accused of being a > conspiracy theorist. However, I cannot believe that Menzies would have > ever received as much publicity as he has received on this discussion > list if someone hadn't been put up to sending the original notice. Why wouldn't a map history list discuss this? Google on "Menzies 1421" to get a flavor of the worldwide coverage that his book has received. And it's not over yet: PBS is making a two-hour documentary for viewing in 2004 (http://www.post-gazette.com/tv/20030111owen0111fnp5.asp). It may be bosh but it's popular bosh. Al Magary _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: seaver@seaver.pobox.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:00:49 -0800 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Paul S. Seaver" Subject: Re: [MapHist] NZ review of 1421 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear friends, John Robson has my thanks for making available to us MapHist'ers the Michael King review of the "1421" book by Gavin Menzies. I am also grateful to Dee Longenbaugh (re the review in the Washington Post) and to others who have kept track of the commentators responding to a situation created by the carefully thought-out manipulations of the author and his PR agents. It is a mystery to me why writers who ignore just about every guideline for believable scholarship nevertheless insist on being taken seriously by those who have painstakingly acquired knowledge of the given field(s) under discussion. I have no trouble at all, however, with understanding colleagues who react strongly to pseudo-scholarship aided and abetted by supposedly reputable publishers. Once a pseudo-scholarly work has been published in the guise of "new knowledge," reviewers and other commentators become the reading public's last defense against greed, cynicism, and disrespect for scholarly methods. Kirsten A. Seaver >The attachment is on the webpage: >http://www.maphist.nl/discpapers.html, Peter. > >Subject: NZ review of 1421 >Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:43:19 +1300 >From: "John Robson" > >Michael King is one of New Zealand's foremost historians and he has just >had a review of 1421 published in a local weekly magazine (the New >Zealand Listener) He discusses those bits of the book that deal with New >Zealand. >Given the recent communications on this list I thought others would >be interested in the review, which I include as an attachment. > >John Robson > >Map Librarian > >University of Waikato. -- _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:20:19 -0500 From: Overlee Farm Books X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Mercator Biography Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Tomorrow (January 23), THE NEW YORK TIMES has a favorable review by Simon Winchester of MERCATOR: THE MAN WHO MAPPED THE PLANET (New York: Holt, 2003). Winchester, the author of THE MAP THAT CHANGED THE WORLD, writes that "[the] book is quite probably destined to become the standard text." Martin Torodash _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: shkurkin@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:14:29 -0800 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Vlad Shkurkin Subject: Re: [MapHist] Menzies Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Personally, I think that a posting on a 1421 review did not require any
third party intervention. Considering the number of MapHist participants
with broad historical backgrounds, including some with specific interests
in the nature of material such as found in 1421,  it was simply a matter
of time before someone would post the "original notice".

One must remember that the MapHist postings about the publicity that
Menzies is getting are originating from outside the group, and that Menzies
is unlikely to profit from any MapHist postings per se on the subject.

What might be interesting would be to speculate on the marketability
of a book with an annotated list of "Menzmiasmas" (referenced, of
course, to both the original and to the corrected editions...).

Cheers,
Vlad Shkurkin

At 05:57 PM 1/22/2003 -0500, you wrote:

I  have never considered myself, nor have I ever been accused of being a
conspiracy theorist.  However, I cannot believe that Menzies would  have
ever received as much publicity as he has received on this discussion
list if someone hadn't been put up to sending the original notice.
Martin Torodash

_______________________________________________________________
MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.nl
X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: werner@mail.uba.uva.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:36:00 +0100 To: libergdc-dg@bravo.nls.uk, maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Jan Werner Subject: [MapHist] map theft (comments + details)) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.21 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id LAA04574 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear colleagues, Thank you very, very much for the many sympathetic and sometimes very helpful comments - few to the lists, many understandably confidential, individual and by telephone - on my message of last 20 December, concerning a recently discovered map theft. It is very important that everyone is warned again and again for the dangers that keep on threatening valuable libraries and map collections. After my first speedy message I will now give additional details about the ruined atlas concerned, hoping that some traces can be found: The atlas / pilot guide: Thesoor der Zeevaert ... / Alles beschreven door den ervaren piloot ende stuerman Lucas Iansz. Waghenaer ... Imprint: Ghedruckt t' Amsterdam, by Cornelis Claesz. op 't Water int Schrijfboeck, voor Lucas Ianssz. Waghenaer. XVI.LCII. [1602]. Described in: Koeman, Atlantes Neerlandici, Vol IV, Wag 20 (pp. 509-510). Stated there to be one of the only two known copies. The UBA copy is a little different from the Rotterdam copy described, all maps most probably being in their first state. Some pictures of the lost title page and maps: To give an idea about the quality and colouring of the maps I refer to 'Early Mapping of Southeast Asia' by Thomas Suárez ([Hong Kong] : Periplus, 1999), showing the final map, Sunda Strait of 1601 at page 191, fig. 109. Peter van der Krogt and Guenter Schilder of the Utrecht University were so helpful as to supply slides of the title page and four maps and make them available on the web, the pictures of which can (for the time being) be found at: http://rkrogt.speed.planet.nl/janw For those who have no access to Koeman's Atlantes Neerlandici Vol. IV, or Tom Suárez' publication, but who seriously think to be able to help, I can supply more specified information about the maps missing, a complete reconstruction of which I have made in the past few weeks. Again, all information and suggestions are still welcome! Kind regards, Jan Werner -------------------------------------------------------- drs. Jan W.H. Werner Conservator Kaarten & Atlassen, Kaartenzaal Curator Maps & Atlases, Map Room Universiteitsbibliotheek Amsterdam Singel 425 NL-1012 WP AMSTERDAM P.O. Box 19185 NL-1000 GD AMSTERDAM t +31 20 5252354 f +31 20 5252311 mailto:werner@uba.uva.nl http://www.uba.uva.nl/nl/collecties/kaarten/ http://www.uba.uva.nl/en/collections/maps/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Subject: RE: [MapHist] NZ review of 1421 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:46:07 -0500 Thread-Topic: [MapHist] NZ review of 1421 Thread-Index: AcLCZQRwnOXtswmvSYec05sJGQ0hVgAmePvQ From: "Hyman, John" To: X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id RAA06153 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 thanks -----Original Message----- From: by way of Peter van der Krogt [mailto:owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl] Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 5:20 PM To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] NZ review of 1421 The attachment is on the webpage: http://www.maphist.nl/discpapers.html, Peter. Subject: NZ review of 1421 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:43:19 +1300 From: "John Robson" Michael King is one of New Zealand's foremost historians and he has just had a review of 1421 published in a local weekly magazine (the New Zealand Listener) He discusses those bits of the book that deal with New Zealand. Given the recent communications on this list I thought others would be interested in the review, which I include as an attachment. John Robson Map Librarian University of Waikato. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:50:55 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: [MapHist] looking for book Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I am trying to find a copy of Postnikov's Russia in Maps. This is for my own reference library, not for temporary use. If anyone knows where this can be located, please let me know OFFLIST (email below). I have already looked through all the usual search and meta-search engines online.

           Thank you.           Joel Kovarsky (jsk@gamewood.net) X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Subject: Re: [MapHist] NZ review of 1421 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:26:57 +0000 x-sender: x0244689@pop.clix.pt x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Francisco Domingues To: "MAP HIST" Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 >It is a mystery to me why writers who ignore just about every >guideline for believable scholarship nevertheless insist on being >taken seriously by those who have painstakingly acquired knowledge >of the given field(s) under discussion. I have no trouble at all, >however, with understanding colleagues who react strongly to >pseudo-scholarship aided and abetted by supposedly reputable >publishers. > >Once a pseudo-scholarly work has been published in the guise of "new >knowledge," reviewers and other commentators become the reading >public's last defense against greed, cynicism, and disrespect for >scholarly methods. > >Kirsten A. Seaver Very wise words, I think! Francisco Contente Domingues --------------------------------------- http://www.ars-nautica.org/ international committee for the history of nautical science and hydrography --------------------------------------- http://planeta.clix.pt/nautica/ portuguese naval and maritime history --------------------------------------- http://members.tripod.com/contente/ personal web page --------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Evelyn Edson" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Street Numbering (Medieval) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:52:59 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In the discussion of street numbering, no one mentioned Daniel Smail's interesting book on the development of street addresses in Marseilles in the late Middle Ages. The title is Imaginary Cartographies: Possession and Identity in Late Medieval Marseilles (Cornell Univ. 2000). He talks about the ways people describe or locate places by landmark (first), by neighborhood and eventually by street and number. In other medieval news, our rural county in Virginia has recently received street names and numbers to replace the old system of numbered state and county roads in order (supposedly) to facilitate emergency response. Street names were taken as much as possible from names roads were actually called either now or in the past. Near us is Kidd's Dairy Road, named for a now-deceased Mr. Kidd who ran a dairy farm, which succumbed in a government buy-out a decade ago. The numbering has also been interesting. Odd and even are on opposite sides of the road, but the gaps between numbers seem oddly chosen. Houses are rather widely spaced and jumps of 100 or more are common. Massive development is apparently expected, or at least being provided for. Evelyn Edson Professor of History Piedmont Virginia Community College 501 College Drive Charlottesville, VA 22902 (434) 961-5384 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:11:48 +0100 From: Wolfgang Koeberer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; de-DE; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 (CK-1LycosDE09) X-Accept-Language: de-de, de To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] 'Oldest star chart' found Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear Kit Batten, the book you`re probably talking about is: Der Ursprung der Sternzeichen. Ein prähistorisches Navigationssystem oder Das Nautische Internet by Kai Helge Wirth (a Frankfurt school teacher) art and Science.de You can order it as a Book-on-Demand. It costs about $ 20. In my opinion this book is not worth the money; it is about on the same level of argument as Hapgood - fitting the shapes of constellations to coastlines and claiming this was used as a tool of navigation. It lacks any explanation how this could have been used and by whom and when - and whether there is any other evidence supporting this scheme. Another case of the Menzies disease. Best regards _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:09:21 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: Re: [MapHist] 'Oldest star chart' found X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id CAA03599 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 >Dear Kit Batten, >the book you`re probably talking about is: > >Der Ursprung der Sternzeichen. >Ein prähistorisches Navigationssystem >oder >Das Nautische Internet > >by Kai Helge Wirth (a Frankfurt school teacher) >art and Science.de > >You can order it as a Book-on-Demand. It costs about $ 20. > >In my opinion this book is not worth the money; it is about on the >same level of argument as Hapgood - fitting the shapes of >constellations to coastlines and claiming this was used as a tool of >navigation. It lacks any explanation how this could have been used >and by whom and when - and whether there is any other evidence >supporting this scheme. >Another case of the Menzies disease. There certainly has been a flurry of these things lately! And while I do not want to encourage the likes of Menzies. It occurred to me this evening that people said much the same thing when Louis Leakey started claiming that pieces of rock found near the bones of early man in East Africa were proto tools used by the hominids they were finding. There wasn't much to go on, but it is more or less accepted now. (More proof must have been assembled for its acceptance. Other than Leakey's rather famous demontrations of how they were made and used.) But in these cases better supporting evidence is clearly necessary. This kind of publicity is a little over the top. Take care, John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 16:32:23 +1100 From: John Cain Subject: RE: [MapHist] Street Numbering X-Sender: johnbpc@truck.its.unimelb.edu.au To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 This is somewhat tangential, but we have similar "rural addressing" taking place in Australia to facilitate emergency response. Rural Road Numbers are not sequential, but are based on the distance along the road from the start of the road to the property entrance being numbered. Odd numbers are on the left and even on the right. This assists emergency response, because the emergency services know from the address number how far they have to travel along the road to find the property. You can find out more about this at: http://www.land.vic.gov.au/4A2565BF0028B10D/BCView/7F699E8EAF8031FD4A256AC70018259C?OpenDocument (or just go to http://www.land.vic.gov.au and search for "rural addressing"). John Cain j.cain@unimelb.edu.au >Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:52:59 -0500 >From: "Evelyn Edson" >Subject: RE: [MapHist] Street Numbering (Medieval) > >In other medieval news, our rural county in Virginia has recently received >street names and numbers to replace the old system of numbered state and >county roads in order (supposedly) to facilitate emergency response. Street >names were taken as much as possible from names roads were actually called >either now or in the past. Near us is Kidd's Dairy Road, named for a >now-deceased Mr. Kidd who ran a dairy farm, which succumbed in a government >buy-out a decade ago. The numbering has also been interesting. Odd and >even are on opposite sides of the road, but the gaps between numbers seem >oddly chosen. Houses are rather widely spaced and jumps of 100 or more are >common. Massive development is apparently expected, or at least being >provided for. > >Evelyn Edson >Professor of History >Piedmont Virginia Community College John Cain j.cain@unimelb.edu.au _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:16:02 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: RE: [MapHist] Street Numbering (Medieval) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 >In the discussion of street numbering, no one mentioned Daniel Smail's >interesting book on the development of street addresses in Marseilles in the >late Middle Ages. The title is Imaginary Cartographies: Possession and >Identity in Late Medieval Marseilles (Cornell Univ. 2000). He talks about >the ways people describe or locate places by landmark (first), by >neighborhood and eventually by street and number. Thanks for the reference. Sounds interesting. >In other medieval news, our rural county in Virginia has recently received >street names and numbers to replace the old system of numbered state and >county roads in order (supposedly) to facilitate emergency response. Street This is common. The county where I grew up in rural Illinois recently did the same thing. Only there, the roads had only colloquial names and there was quite a brouhaha when the people hired to name the roads didn't bother to find out what the locals called them. Of course, you got those situations where a road was called the Kinmundy Road near the Patoka end and the Patoka Road near the Kinmundy end. ;-) But there the towns are so small that while the streets have names no one uses them. >names were taken as much as possible from names roads were actually called >either now or in the past. Near us is Kidd's Dairy Road, named for a >now-deceased Mr. Kidd who ran a dairy farm, which succumbed in a government >buy-out a decade ago. The numbering has also been interesting. Odd and >even are on opposite sides of the road, but the gaps between numbers seem >oddly chosen. Houses are rather widely spaced and jumps of 100 or more are >common. Massive development is apparently expected, or at least being >provided for. This is not uncommon. In Illinois (actually in most of the old Northwest Territories) the country roads are generally on the section lines, so they are a mile apart. (This is why you see the nice grid pattern when you fly over it.) To give you an idea, the major thoroughfares in Chicago are the old section roads and there are (I think) about 10 blocks between them. So if numbers go up by 100 at every block, it would not be out the ordinary to do see the kind of gaps you are seeing. Also, the gaps were left not so much that they expect development but much more if you don't get the numbering right to start with the longer it takes to find out you got it wrong the more painful it is to fix it. All in all numbers are pretty cheap. There is literally an infinite supply, so you may as well be free with using them. This is something we have learned the hard way in addressing in the Internet. And for pure whimsy, if you would like some very good advice on naming read Dr. Seuss' "Too Many Daves"! ;-) Take care, John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Nick Millea To: nam@bodley.ox.ac.uk Subject: [MapHist] The Oxford Seminars in Cartography - reminder Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 15:16:57 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) X-Mailer: Simeon for Win32 Version 4.1.5 Build (43) X-Authentication: none Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear All, [This message has been cross-posted to carto-soc, lis-maps, maphist, maps-l, and various private individuals] A reminder of our next meeting .......... THE OXFORD SEMINARS IN CARTOGRAPHY The Admiralty Chart in the nineteenth century: a neglected resource? Andrew Cook (India Office Records, The British Library) Thursday 27 February School of Geography and the Environment, Mansfield Road, Oxford at 5pm The Oxford Seminars in Cartography are supported by the Friends of TOSCA, ESRI (UK) Ltd, Oxford Cartographers, and the School of Geography & the Environment, University of Oxford For further details, please contact the undersigned: ________________________________________________________ Nick Millea Map Librarian, Bodleian Library, Broad Street, Oxford, OX1 3BG tel : 01865 287119 fax : 01865 277139 email : nam@bodley.ox.ac.uk homepage: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/guides/maps/ ________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: MKBabinski@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 14:31:49 EST Subject: [MapHist] Dorothy Sloan's BOOK (!) for her Feb. 5 auction To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 8.0 for Windows US sub 230 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dorothy,

I will disregard your admonition below. And I am not even going to say - "I am sorry".

Having received a copy of your "A Complete Collection of the ZAMORANO 80: A Selection of Distinguished California Books Made by Members of the Zamorano Club: Formed by Daniel G. Volkmann, Jr." BOOK (no, no - it is NOT a catalogue) for your February 5th San Francisco auction I can only make the following comments:

(1) MARVELOUS
(2) A reference hard to beat of Streeter and Wagner-Camp caliber
(3) Should be published in HARD-BACK

Beautiful. Too bad it is not only maps.

Mark

In a message dated 1/21/2003 6:36:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, DSloanRareBooks@aol.com writes:

PLEASE DO NOT USE YOUR EMAIL REPLY FUNCTION TO RESPOND TO THIS ANNOUNCEMENT. MAKE SURE ANY MESSAGE COMES TO rarebooks@sloanrarebooks.com AND IS NOT SENT TO THE ENTIRE LIST.


 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 09:48:17 -0500 To: iamalist@antiquemapdealers.com From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: [MapHist] internet problems- Cc: maphist@geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 This is just to let the group know of some problems that developed. Not that these things should be a surprise, but it may affect scattered sites and emails, and could take a few days to correct problems. Joel Joel Kovarsky for THE PRIME MERIDIAN 385 Thistle Trail, Danville, VA 24540 USA Phone: 434/724-1106; Fax: 434/799-0218 email: jsk@gamewood.net Website: _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: MKBabinski@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 00:01:36 EST Subject: [MapHist] Anti-Gallicans To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 8.0 for Windows US sub 230 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 This map looks different than the one I am familiar with (and the one that was discussed here about 2 months ago). How many maps of North America did the Society put out?

At the Bibliotheque Nationale de Quebec, Montreal:

http://www.bnquebec.ca/cargeo/htm/TRBI0051.htm

Mark X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "van der heijden" To: Subject: [MapHist] Mentelle Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:13:28 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
In der U.B.Eichstätt befindet sich der Atlas Nouveau von Edm Mentelle, 1780 , sign. 197-112-8. In diesem Atlas steht die Karte 'Carte Ancienne des Pays compris[. . ..] de Provinces Unies des Pays Bas'. Wer kann mir sagen ob auch die Karte 'Provinces Unies en 4 feuilles' darin steht ?
Herzlichen Dank
Henk van der Heijden
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "tony campbell" To: "*Lismaps" , "*Maps-L" , "*MapHist" , "*Liber-GdC" Subject: [MapHist] Danish map theft (Oct. 02) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:02:48 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 [posted, with apologies for duplication, to the Maps-L, lismaps, MapHist and LIBER GdC lists] Joel Kovarsky, of the International Antiquarian Mapsellers Association (IAMA) drew attention to the report, on the website of the International League of Antiquarian Booksellers (ILAB/LILA), of a theft in October 2002 from Kaabers Antikvariat, a rare book and map shop in Copenhagen. See < http://www.ilab-lila.com/english/internetthieves.htm > for the full report. The following passage is perhaps worth quoting:- "Because old maps and books usually have unique identifying features such as former owners' marks, small tears and soil spots, and similar defects, they can be easily compared with detailed descriptions found in the computer data bases of their owners. Now that the internet makes it possible for reports of stolen books and maps to be rapidly circulated to most leading dealers in this material, it becomes very much harder than ever before for thieves to successfully sell their ill-gotten wares. The ILAB, along with its affiliate members in 20 nations, is currently notifying its members of stolen material as it is reported and will soon be operating a computer data base of stolen books, maps, and related materials. As well as items stolen from its affilitated members, the ILAB hopes that it will become among the first places that libraries, institutions, and private collectors report significant stolen property, and it hopes to always be instrumental in recovering such property for its owners." I hope that any librarians who still favour non-disclosure of information about thefts will take note! We await further information about the proposed database of stolen items. ***************************************** Tony Campbell 76 Ockendon Road London N1 3NW t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk Tel: 020 7359 6477 ****************************************** 'Thefts of early maps and books' < http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps/thefts.html > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] B.P. Polevoy : death & obituary Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:43:12 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714

Nobody has, to my knowledge, yet announced this.  An obituary of B. P. Polevoy (died 27 January 2002), a Russian historian of cartography, has been published in a Russian periodical (details supplied, on request, for all of those who wish it).   For samples of his published writings see, e.g., 'Imago Mundi Bibliography' in vol. 29 (1977), entries 77:29(065) & (140) ; vol. 30 (1978), entries 78:30(075) & (151) ; etc.

 

Francis Herbert (Curator of Maps, RSG-IBG)

f.herbert@rgs.org

http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives']

 

(Compiler of 'Imago Mundi Bibliography')  

http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps/imago.html

 

 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Subject: [MapHist] RE: maps of discovery Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:14:24 -0500 Thread-Topic: [MapHist] Anti-Gallicans Thread-Index: AcLFyCKV3NrUs5KYQvaHL6tNRP4EEAAXsLhy From: "Lozovsky, Natalia" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jan 2003 17:14:24.0656 (UTC) FILETIME=[8A53B100:01C2C627] X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id SAA08727 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear Maphisters, Could you recomment some web site(s), which has good maps of the voyages of discovery, especially of Columbus' travel and the subsequent conquest/exploration? I'd appreciate your advice. Natalia Lozovsky _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:02:03 -0800 From: Todd Helt Subject: RE: [MapHist] RE: maps of discovery To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Natalia, For late 18th-19th century discovery in North America, check out the David Rumsey Collection, and in particular his Lewis and Clark 200th Anniversary Internet GIS site. http://www.davidrumsey.com/gis/lewisclark.htm This site includes 30 historical maps from Arrowsmith's 1802 "New Discoveries in the Interior Parts of North America" and Samuel Lewis' 1814 "Map of Lewis and Clark's Track, Across the Western Portion of North America" thru the US General Land Office (GLO) maps of the 1860-70's, into the modern USGS National Atlas of the 1970's and NASA sdatellite imagery of the 1990's. All of these maps have been georeferenced and are provided with web browser based tools for geopspatial analysis and visualization (GIS) and interactive comparison. There are also some earlier maps of discovery that are available for review and download from the David Rumsey Collection using the Insight tools at http://www.davidrumsey.com. You can see what's available by using the "Search by Data Field" with "Date Less Than xxxx" (your time period of interest). Best regards, Todd ---------------------------------------------- Todd F. Helt President Telemorphic, Incorporated 748 Gilman Street Berkeley, CA 94710-1327 Ph: (510) 527-8343 Fax: (510) 527-8364 toddh@telemorphic.com www.telemorphic.com > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl]On > Behalf Of Lozovsky, Natalia > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 9:14 AM > To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > Subject: [MapHist] RE: maps of discovery > > > Dear Maphisters, > > Could you recomment some web site(s), which has good maps of the > voyages of discovery, especially of Columbus' travel and the > subsequent conquest/exploration? I'd appreciate your advice. > > Natalia Lozovsky > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:39:25 +0000 From: Ashley Baynton-Williams Organization: MapForum.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Anti-Gallicans Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Mark, The image you refer to is indeed the 'Anti-Gallicans Map' - it simply looks different without the side panels - see for example McCorkle: New England in Early Printed Maps 755.38. For your information, the image is (I think) of the second state, with the addition of the panels of text in the sea to the left and above the inset. Ashley Baynton-Williams _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: MKBabinski@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:10:05 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] Anti-Gallicans To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 8.0 for Windows US sub 230 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In a message dated 1/27/2003 5:59:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, Ashley.bw@BTINTERNET.COM writes:

The image you refer to is indeed the 'Anti-Gallicans Map' - it simply
looks different without the side panels - see for example McCorkle: New
England in Early Printed Maps 755.38
.
Yes, I didn't follow closely the discussion regarding this map posted on MapHist 2 months ago. Thus, when I came across this Bibliotheque National DU (not 'de' as I wrote before) Quebec map I just quickly noted it for the list - figuring it may be of interest.

What I found interesting, aside from the map, was the nice implementation of the database that BNQ has on the web for its maps. The alphabetical index of mapmakers names leads you to a small, quickly displayed, good quality picture of the map and then, if you decide you have the 5 minutes for downloading, you can select the super-high quality large image of map. Someting like a simplified Rumsey site - without the intermediate stages.

Mark X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.0.2 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 08:34:59 +0100 From: "Theodor Bauer" To: Subject: Antw: [MapHist] Mentelle Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Lieber Herr van der Heijden, im Bayerischen Verbundkatalog sind sämtliche Karten des Atlas einzeln aufgeführt. Daraus ist ersichtlich, dass als weitere Karte der Niederlande nur noch die: Carte G en erale Des Provinces Unies Et Des Pays-Bas / Grav e par P. F. Tardieu. Ecrit par Ph. Macquet. - [Ca. 1:1 100 000] [Paris] : [Edme Mentelle], [Ca. 1780]. - 1 Kt. : Kupferstich ; 30 x 41 cm (Mentelle, Edme: Atlas Nouveau ; 62) Maßstab in graph. Form (Milles de Hollande, Lieues Marines). - Titel oben links. - Nullmeridian: Paris u. Ferro in dem Atlas vorhanden ist, der Atlas, so wie es sich darstellt, also dort unvollständig ist (Zählung nicht durchgehend). Theo Bauer >>> h.a.vander.heijden@12move.nl 27.01.03 14:13:28 >>> In der U.B.Eichstätt befindet sich der Atlas Nouveau von Edm Mentelle, 1780 , sign. 197-112-8. In diesem Atlas steht die Karte 'Carte Ancienne des Pays compris[. . ..] de Provinces Unies des Pays Bas'. Wer kann mir sagen ob auch die Karte 'Provinces Unies en 4 feuilles' darin steht ? Herzlichen Dank Henk van der Heijden _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 00:37:44 -0800 Subject: Re: [MapHist] B.P. Polevoy : death & obituary From: Alexey Postnikov To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.543) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Lucida GrandeDear Francis and all other map historians, I am sorry to correct an information on this sad event. Boris Polevoy had died not yesterday (27th January 2002) but a year ago (27th January 2001). As well as I remember, I told the MapHist about his demise to a few days later. Yours with wishes of good health and long life, Alexey Postnikov (Professor, Doctor of Science) Corresponding Member of the International Academy of the History of Science (Paris) Deputy Director Institute of the History of Science and Technology Russian Academy of Sciences 1/5 Staropanskiy Street, Moscow 103012, Russia. Phone: (7-095)-925-70-03 (office) (7-095)-978-25-57 (home) Fax: (7-095)-925-99-11 E-mail: apostnik@ihst.ru Times New RomanURL: Times New Roman9D9C,1110,B3B2 http://www.ihst.ru/personal/apostnik/Apostnik_ind.htm On Monday, Jan 27, 2003, at 07:43 US/Pacific, F.Herbert@RGS.ORG wrote: ArialNobody has, to my knowledge, yet announced this.š An obituary of B. P. Polevoy (died27 January 2002), a Russian historian of cartography, has been published in a Russian periodical (details supplied, on request, for all of those who wish it).šš For samples of his published writings see, e.g., 'Imago Mundi Bibliography' in vol. 29 (1977), entries 77:29(065) & (140) ; vol. 30 (1978), entries 78:30(075) & (151) ; etc. Arialš ArialFrancis Herbert(Curator of Maps, RSG-IBG) Arial0000,0000,FFFFf.herbert@rgs.org Arial0000,0000,FFFFhttp://www.rgs.orgArial [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives'] Arialš Courier New(Compiler of 'Imago Mundi Bibliography')šš Courier New0000,0000,FFFFhttp://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps/imago.html Arialš X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 00:43:19 -0800 Subject: Re: [MapHist] B.P. Polevoy : death & obituary From: Alexey Postnikov To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.543) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Oh! Shame on me! Francis, I am very sorry, and you has been absolutely right. I just has forgotten that we live in 2003. I do beg your pardon! Alexey. On Monday, Jan 27, 2003, at 07:43 US/Pacific, F.Herbert@RGS.ORG wrote: ArialNobody has, to my knowledge, yet announced this.š An obituary of B. P. Polevoy (died27 January 2002), a Russian historian of cartography, has been published in a Russian periodical (details supplied, on request, for all of those who wish it).šš For samples of his published writings see, e.g., 'Imago Mundi Bibliography' in vol. 29 (1977), entries 77:29(065) & (140) ; vol. 30 (1978), entries 78:30(075) & (151) ; etc. Arialš ArialFrancis Herbert(Curator of Maps, RSG-IBG) Arial0000,0000,FFFFf.herbert@rgs.org Arial0000,0000,FFFFhttp://www.rgs.orgArial [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives'] Arialš Courier New(Compiler of 'Imago Mundi Bibliography')šš Courier New0000,0000,FFFFhttp://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps/imago.html Arialš Alexey Postnikov (Professor, Doctor of Science) Corresponding Member of the International Academy of the History of Science (Paris) Deputy Director Institute of the History of Science and Technology Russian Academy of Sciences 1/5 Staropanskiy Street, Moscow 103012, Russia. Phone: (7-095)-925-70-03 (office) (7-095)-978-25-57 (home) Fax: (7-095)-925-99-11 E-mail: apostnik@ihst.ru Times New RomanURL: Times New Roman9D9D,1111,B3B3 http://www.ihst.ru/personal/apostnik/Apostnik_ind.htm X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 12:57:55 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: [MapHist] Andrews & Dury maps of Kent (1769) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from [Ken Atherton ] With apologies for cross-posting. I believe Keith is particularly interested in the Andrews and Dury (and Herbert) maps of Kent. ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Dear Ken Here is the query I mentioned. If you can feed this out to your mailing list I should be grateful. In 1769 or thereabouts, Andrews & Dury produced maps of a number of English counties. I am interested in the surveying techniques used for these maps, a list of the symbols used to denote the features they contain and whether there is any modern analysis. I was hoping to get this information from the Andrews & Dury map book held by my county archives. Unfortunately the book doesn't give this information having no explanatory preface or introduction other than it was produced following an act of parliament. The archivists were unable to provide any information either. If anyone can help me obtain this information it would be appreciated. Many thanks for taking the trouble. Yours sincerely Keith Griffiths --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release Date: 10/01/03 -- Ken Atherton British Cartographic Society Administration 12 Elworthy Drive Wellington Somerset TA21 9AT UK Tel/Fax 01823 665 775 http://www.cartography.org.uk _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 5.5.7.1 Beta Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 08:22:56 -0500 From: "Edward James Redmond" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Anti-Gallicans - map image link Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Images of the 'Society of Anti-Gallicans' maps (with and without the side panel additions) from the collections of the Library of Congress are available from: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/gmdhtml/gmdhome.html 1) clck on "creator" search 2) look for "Society of Anti-Gallicans" in alphabetical list; follow link 3) use the "gallery view" feature to see thumbnail images of both maps Ed Redmond Geography and Map Division Library of Congress >>> MKBabinski@aol.com 01/27/03 06:10PM >>> In a message dated 1/27/2003 5:59:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, Ashley.bw@BTINTERNET.COM writes: > The image you refer to is indeed the 'Anti-Gallicans Map' - it simply > looks different without the side panels - see for example McCorkle: New > England in Early Printed Maps 755.38. Yes, I didn't follow closely the discussion regarding this map posted on MapHist 2 months ago. Thus, when I came across this Bibliotheque National DU (not 'de' as I wrote before) Quebec map I just quickly noted it for the list - figuring it may be of interest. What I found interesting, aside from the map, was the nice implementation of the database that BNQ has on the web for its maps. The alphabetical index of mapmakers names leads you to a small, quickly displayed, good quality picture of the map and then, if you decide you have the 5 minutes for downloading, you can select the super-high quality large image of map. Someting like a simplified Rumsey site - without the intermediate stages. Mark _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Subject: [MapHist] charts Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:55:02 -0500 Thread-Topic: charts Thread-Index: AcLG5Z4EP2h1gcrgQgSyKGK75f+1nA== From: "Hyman, John" To: X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id QAA11614 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 We recently acquired a set of the multi-sheet Ainslie charts of Scottish waters. Each chart consists of a set of loose pages. These pages are joined together with a short bit of string through holes in the top of the sheet, well away from the plate line. The string is old though perhaps not original; the holes are not reinforced but they're not torn or disfigured as they might be through use. The question is now: has anyone seen sets of charts held together in similar fashion? Is anyone willing to hazard a guess as to the reason for this treatment as opposed to, for example, linen-mounting all the sheets to form a complete chart. All thoughts will be gratefully received. John Hyman _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] B.P. Polevoy : death & obituary Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 16:34:28 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714

Aleksey (and MapHist):

 

You are forgiven - many of us (as we are human)  mis-date correspondence, cheques/checks, etc. at the beginning of each new year.  Just as well we do not have to cope with the Russian Orthodox New Year too!

 

Francis

f.herbert@rgs.org

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Alexey Postnikov [mailto:apostnik@HISTORY.IHST.RU]
Sent: 28 January 2003 08:43
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: Re: [MapHist] B.P. Polevoy : death & obituary

 

Oh!

 

Shame on me! Francis, I am very sorry, and you has been absolutely right. I just has forgotten that we live in 2003.

 

I do beg your pardon!

 

Alexey.

On Monday, Jan 27, 2003, at 07:43 US/Pacific, F.Herbert@RGS.ORG wrote:

 

Nobody has, to my knowledge, yet announced this.  An obituary of B. P. Polevoy (died27 January 2002), a Russian historian of cartography, has been published in a Russian periodical (details supplied, on request, for all of those who wish it).   For samples of his published writings see, e.g., 'Imago Mundi Bibliography' in vol. 29 (1977), entries 77:29(065) & (140) ; vol. 30 (1978), entries 78:30(075) & (151) ; etc.

 

 

 

Francis Herbert(Curator of Maps, RSG-IBG)

 

f.herbert@rgs.org

 

http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives']

 

 

 

(Compiler of 'Imago Mundi Bibliography')  

 

http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps/imago.html

 

 

 

Alexey Postnikov (Professor, Doctor of Science)

Corresponding Member of the International Academy of the History of Science (Paris)

Deputy Director

Institute of the History of Science and Technology

Russian Academy of Sciences

1/5 Staropanskiy Street, Moscow 103012, Russia.

Phone: (7-095)-925-70-03 (office)

(7-095)-978-25-57 (home)

Fax: (7-095)-925-99-11

E-mail: apostnik@ihst.ru

URL:    http://www.ihst.ru/personal/apostnik/Apostnik_ind.htm

 

 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: seaver@seaver.pobox.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 08:34:53 -0800 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Paul S. Seaver" Subject: [MapHist] Chinese comments on Menzies Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear friends, Those who follow scholarly reactions to "1421" by Gavin Menzies will find some Chinese comments on this URL: http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/books/01/27/1421.china.react.ap/index.html Kirsten A. Seaver -- _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "George S. Carhart" Organization: University of Southern Maine To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:11:37 -0500 Subject: Re: [MapHist] Anti-Gallicans X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Ashley Who has a copy of the Anti-Gallican map in the first state without the additional panels of text in the sea to the left and above the inset ? This is new to me. There is a latter state of the plate published by Sayer ca. 1763 with a new title and a text block in place of the inset map of the Western Atlantic. The LC copy is on line at http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgibin/query/D?gmd:6:./temp/~ ammem_ehFu:: George George S. Carhart Cartographic Associate Osher Map Library Smith Center for Cartographic Education University of Southern Maine P.O. Box 9301 Portland, Maine 04104-9301 USA (207) 780-4910 gcarhart@usm.maine.edu _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: np003a5704@pop3.blueyonder.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:55:49 +0000 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Nick Pelling Subject: [MapHist] Vinland Map and cryptography... X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id TAA18353 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Hi maphisters, As I have been recently researching 15th Century cryptography in some depth, I thought it might be interesting to take a dispassionate look at James Enterline's 1991 Terrae Incognitae article on the alleged cryptography in the Vinland Map. Enterline reports that Ole Landsverk first pointed out a simple cryptogram here: while the top-left paragraph is incomplete (it terminates in mid-sentence with "processit"), the initial acrostic (the first letters) of the eight-word short paragraph immediately below it is "viabrels". "Proceeded Via Brels" neatly completes the sense of the first paragraph - and, in my view, is an almost cast-iron instance of intentional primary cryptography. After that, the question becomes not about the *existence* of cryptography in the Vinland Map, rather about the *extent* of cryptography there. There is, furthermore, strong evidence that the first eight lines of the top left paragraph (and the five lines of a central paragraph) contain further pairs of short cryptograms - but this time of a slightly more subtle nature (a word-count offset acrostic/telestic pair). These were first noted by Alf Mongé, a well-respected ex-US Army cryptanalyst. After a lot of thought, I now believe that, here, the two telestic (ie, offset from the line-end) cryptograms are intended purely to *order* the two acrostic (ie, offset from the line-start) cryptograms. This provides, I think, a tighter cryptographic argument than having to invoke the two secret keys ("lysander" and "kopec") suggested in the article. Cryptography also provides a strong rebuttal to the more recent "bad spelling" criticisms of the VM's Latin - the kind of various Latin inconsistencies observed there are normally required in order to shoehorn cryptograms into otherwise meaningful texts (as opposed to imaginary texts). In fact, such inconsistencies can also be used as indicators of the likely loci of cryptographic content within such texts. Furthermore, such inconsistencies can also be thought of as a (weak) proof that the text is not purely imaginary, as it would be far less time-consuming for a forger to construct text around the cryptogram, than to iteratively rearrange a pre-decided text until the cryptogram finally worked. Finally: I should say that, as far as I had any preconception about the cryptography in the VM, it would have been this: that it would likely be as debatable as all the other VM-related evidence has seemed to prove. However, it seems, by way of contrast, *extremely* cut and dry. If the VM is a forgery, then it is one which employs considerable cryptographic ingenuity, as well as deep knowledge of 15th Century steganographic cryptogram practice. I consider this unlikely. Best regards, .....Nick Pelling..... _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Ottomantom@cs.com Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 16:59:30 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] 'Oldest star chart' found To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: CompuServe 7.0 for Windows US sub 10504 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I have received a number of messages from you. I am most surprised at the heading for this message. We have just returned from Florida and I am trying to read a lot of mail.
It is a pleasure to heart from you.
Sincerely, Tom Goodrich X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: krogt@pop.geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:36:20 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: [MapHist] Historical geographies of the sea Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from ["Luciana Martins" ] RGS-IBG International Annual Conference London, 3-5 September 2003 Historical Geographies of the Sea Call for Papers Organised by Dr David Lambert, Dr Luciana Martins and Dr Miles Ogborn This session seeks to address historical geography=B9s lack of attention to the sea and to demonstrate the significance of maritime geographies in shaping economics, politics and culture at all scales, from the local to th= e global. The session seeks empirically-grounded papers that address the geographies of oceanic, maritime and coastal worlds, particularly those connected to the creation of new global systems from the early modern perio= d onwards. We aim to include papers that address and reorient the key concerns of contemporary historical geography =AD including globalisation, empire, mappings, and the making of geographical knowledge =AD through attention to the sea. Papers are welcomed on the geographies of oceanic exploration and colonisation, maritime trade and piracy; on the sea-borne carriage and circulation of people, goods and ideas; on the cultures and politics of the seas, ports and coasts that arose from contact, commerce an= d population movement (both forced and unforced); on the politics of representing and displaying the seas and seafarers; and on the construction of geographical knowledge as a marine endeavour. Offers for papers, comprising author, address, title and abstract (of not more than 200 words) should be submitted to Dr David Lambert by e-mail or hard copy no later than Friday 7th February 2003. Presentations are expected to be around 20 minutes in duration. Dr David Lambert Department of Geography Downing Place Tel.: 020 7602 0198 Cambridge, CB2 3EN Email: DRL23@cam.ac.uk Dr Luciana Martins Department of Geography Royal Holloway University of London Tel.: 01784 443566 Egham, Surrey, TW20 0EX Email: l.martins@rhul.ac.uk Dr Miles Ogborn Department of Geography Queen Mary, University of London Tel.: 020 7882 5407 Mile End Road, London E1 4NS Email: m.j.ogborn@qmul.ac.uk _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: krogt@pop.geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:37:15 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: [MapHist] The world Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from [R y V Mayer ] Dear maphisters: The following address is not strictly of cartographic interest, but it = does show us incredible views of the magnitude in outer space, objects = at a scale we are familiar with and the minuteness of atomic structure. = Surely of interest to those of us who have our feet firmly planted in = between these extremes. Enjoy: = http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/index.h= tml Roberto L. Mayer vyrmayer@prodigy.net.mx=20 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Organization: The Ohio State University Center for Mapping Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 13:52:09 -0500 From: "Duane F. Marble" Organization: OSU Center for Mapping User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 (nscd2) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf To: maphist Subject: [MapHist] Facsimile of Mercator Atlas on sale Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 For those who might be interested, today's mail included a catalog from Daedalus Books (www.salebooks.com) that contained the following item: The Mercator Atlas of Europe: Facsimile of the Maps by Gerardus Mercator Contained in the Atlas of Europe, circa 1570-1572. Marcel Watelet, ed. Walking Tree (slipcased) $245.00 on sale for $ 99.98 (item #30308) They also offer: Maps and Mapmakers of the Civil War. Earl B. McElfresh. Adams. $55.00 on sale for $27.50 (item #22409) -- Dr. Duane F. Marble Professor Emeritus of Geography Telephone: 614-292-4419 Center for Mapping Fax: 614-292-8062 The Ohio State University 1216 Kinnear Road Email: marble.1@osu.edu Columbus, Ohio 43212 Two thoughts: "Time is Nature's way of stopping things happening all at once." "God invented space so that not everything had to happen in Columbus." _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 19:49:25 +0000 From: Ashley Baynton-Williams Organization: MapForum.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] charts Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 John Hyman asked: "has anyone seen sets of charts held together in similar fashion? Is anyone willing to hazard a guess as to the reason for this treatment as opposed to, for example, linen-mounting all the sheets to form a complete chart". John, The likelihood is that the string is original, rather than later. A simplistic suggestion is that it is the contemporary equivalent of stapling. I haven't seen it on charts before, but I have on multi-sheet English maps. I would suggest that Ainslie's publisher, HM Customs and Excise, simply wanted to ensure the sheets of each chart stayed together in transit and storage, and that further action - binding, backing, joining or whatever - could be undertaken when the customer made the purchase, thus limiting costs until some income came in. Ashley Baynton-Williams _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 09:14:57 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: Re: [MapHist] charts Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Not distributed automatically since the content-type included html From: "Harold Osher" Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 17:10:57 -0500 John, Ashley's explanation seems reasonable to me. I can only add that my copy of John Rocque's A GENERAL MAP OF NORTH AMERICA, London, 1761 has the four sheets held together by a slender pink ribbon, apparently old and possibly contemporary, passed through three unevenly placed holes (the middle hole being 3" below the top hole and 4 inches above the bottom hole), near the edges of wide left margins extending 4-6" beyond the plate mark. The margins are integral to the map sheets, not added or extended. The ribbon was tied (presumably re-tied) in a bow knot. The fact that the map was published by Mary Ann Rocque, John's widow, may have something to do with the choice of pink ribbon rather than string. Harold Harold L. Osher, MD Osher Map Library, University of Southern Maine 314 Forest Avenue, Portland, ME 04104 Tel: (207) 780-4850 Fax: (207) 780-5310 email: osherh@hotmail.com www.usm.maine.edu/maps ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Hyman, John" Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl To: Subject: [MapHist] charts Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:55:02 -0500 We recently acquired a set of the multi-sheet Ainslie charts of Scottish waters. Each chart consists of a set of loose pages. These pages are joined together with a short bit of string through holes in the top of the sheet, well away from the plate line. The string is old though perhaps not original; the holes are not reinforced but they're not torn or disfigured as they might be through use. The question is now: has anyone seen sets of charts held together in similar fashion? Is anyone willing to hazard a guess as to the reason for this treatment as opposed to, for example, linen-mounting all the sheets to form a complete chart. All thoughts will be gratefully received. John Hyman _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "John Weiss" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] charts Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 09:14:25 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 As to the pinkness of the ribbon - pink ribbon was the choice of bureaucras and lawyers in the UK and the US - it's the origin of the English phrase 'red tape' and I have found it in US files of the 1820s in the US National Archives, where I could not get the local supervisors to treat the ribbon as archive once they had cut it to enable copying. John Weiss London ----- Original Message ----- From: "by way of Peter van der Krogt " To: Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 8:14 AM Subject: Re: [MapHist] charts : Not distributed automatically since the content-type included html : : From: "Harold Osher" : Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 17:10:57 -0500 : : John, : : Ashley's explanation seems reasonable to me. : : I can only add that my copy of John Rocque's A GENERAL MAP OF NORTH : AMERICA, London, 1761 has the four sheets held together by a slender pink : ribbon, apparently old and possibly contemporary, passed through three : unevenly placed holes (the middle hole being 3" below the top hole and 4 : inches above the bottom hole), near the edges of wide left margins : extending 4-6" beyond the plate mark. The margins are integral to the map : sheets, not added or extended. The ribbon was tied (presumably re-tied) in : a bow knot. The fact that the map was published by Mary Ann Rocque, John's : widow, may have something to do with the choice of pink ribbon rather than : string. : : Harold : : Harold L. Osher, MD : : Osher Map Library, University of Southern Maine : 314 Forest Avenue, Portland, ME 04104 : Tel: (207) 780-4850 Fax: (207) 780-5310 : email: osherh@hotmail.com : www.usm.maine.edu/maps : : : ----Original Message Follows---- : From: "Hyman, John" : Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl : To: : Subject: [MapHist] charts : Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:55:02 -0500 : : : We recently acquired a set of the multi-sheet Ainslie charts : of Scottish waters. Each chart consists of a set of loose : pages. These pages are joined together with a short bit : of string through holes in the top of the sheet, well away : from the plate line. : : The string is old though perhaps not original; the holes are : not reinforced but they're not torn or disfigured as they might : be through use. : : The question is now: has anyone seen sets of charts held : together in similar fashion? Is anyone willing to hazard a : guess as to the reason for this treatment as opposed to, for : example, linen-mounting all the sheets to form a complete chart. : : All thoughts will be gratefully received. : : John Hyman : : _______________________________________________________________ : MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography : hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. : The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of : the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of : Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for : the views of the author. : List Information: http://www.maphist.nl : _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Cook, Andrew" To: "'maphist@geog.uu.nl'" Subject: RE: [MapHist] charts Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 10:38:24 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I think the answer to the question, if broadened to maps generally, may be 'Frequently'. I believe the practice may parallel that of sidestabbing folded pamphlet quires to keep the unit of sale physically together between publisher and retailer. The practice with maps was quite common in the nineteenth century, more with twine through a pattern of three holes reinforced with a card 'clip', over the sheet edges and covering the holes, to prevent tearing. Same inferred purpose, to keep the intellectual units discrete in a warehousing situation. Red tape 'side-sewing' is very well known in folders of maps in government offices, particularly the UK Cabinet Office for the Committee of Imperial Defence in the 1914-18 War. The practice with UK Admiralty chart folios - sewn, or just bundled - in the early C19th is currently under investigation. Hope this helps Andrew Cook ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Andrew S Cook MA PhD FRSA FRHistS Map Archivist, India Office Records The British Library 96 Euston Road London NW1 2DB E-mail andrew.cook@bl.uk Telephone/Voicemail 020 7412 7828 Fax 020 7412 7641 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -----Original Message----- From: Hyman, John [mailto:JHyman@cwf.org] Sent: 28 January 2003 15:55 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] charts We recently acquired a set of the multi-sheet Ainslie charts of Scottish waters. Each chart consists of a set of loose pages. These pages are joined together with a short bit of string through holes in the top of the sheet, well away from the plate line. The string is old though perhaps not original; the holes are not reinforced but they're not torn or disfigured as they might be through use. The question is now: has anyone seen sets of charts held together in similar fashion? Is anyone willing to hazard a guess as to the reason for this treatment as opposed to, for example, linen-mounting all the sheets to form a complete chart. All thoughts will be gratefully received. John Hyman _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. 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List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Info: This message was accepted for relay by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net as the sender used SMTP authentication X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaewlllvRxiXjGGMDnW8jb6rk4xndovHYdhUs8xQJv+1Je2yC5ssr1dJIyAqKdohC4= X-Sender: sanderva@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 08:15:00 -0500 To: From: Jeanne & Tom Sander Subject: [MapHist] Decorating with a World View X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id OAA12712 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 The Thursday January 30, 2003 "Washington Post" (Home Section, pages 1 and 4) contains a cheerful article about maps, map collecting, and decorating with maps. Below are the article and its accompanying guide for your information. Click on the first web site to see an illustration from the article. Regards, Tom Sander (1) washingtonpost.com http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59959-2003Jan29.html Decorating With a World View Old Maps Find a New Life Beyond Geography By Elizabeth Festa Special to “The Washington Post” Thursday, January 30, 2003; Page H01 Back in the early 1980s, Jim Tam sold laughs for a living as a leading standup comedian on the Washington club scene. Now he's serving up nostalgia and armchair wanderlust through sales of vintage and antique maps. On any given Saturday, his map and ephemera stall at the weekend flea market on Capitol Hill, topped with fluttering Navy signal flags, is surrounded by browsers from all walks of Washington life: government workers who have traveled widely, students who hope to, the children of immigrants looking for an ancestor's homeland, young homeowners looking for something interesting to hang on a wall. "Maps are a sentimental thing," says Tam. "Washington is a transient town," and finding maps of where we've come from, where we've been, "is very important in a transient place." Tam, who describes himself as "young middle age," has been plying his trade across from Eastern Market since May. Always a collector, he says he decided to start selling antique maps (and comic books and baseball memorabilia) a few years ago when the local comedy business dried up. Some of his original stock, dating as far back as the early 1800s, came from atlases and encyclopedias inherited from his grandfather. Pages taken from old books are called "disbound extracts," says Tam. "I keep telling my father they have been doing this for hundreds of years, but now I am doing it outdoors in this fun, festive atmosphere." He adds to his inventory, most of which he sells between $5 and $100, at estate sales, flea markets and the Salvation Army; he also keeps a list of clients' requests (jim tamjimtam@hotmail.com). Since many of his maps were printed, borders have shifted and names have changed, but the romance of the places depicted there remains: Think White Russia, called so, some say, for its white birches; Persia clutched by the Tigris and Euphrates; classical Palestine and caravan routes in Arabia; a united Ireland; the old Ottoman Empire; even Logan Circle back at the arrival of the 20th century, when it was still called Iowa Circle. "This is my neighborhood," exclaimed a woman from Northwest looking through Tam's offerings one recent weekend. "This is great. I live right here." The stall is often buzzing with browsers and buyers sharing personal or historical anecdotes while pointing to an area colored on a 100-year-old page. Cartographers of yesteryear might be surprised to find their versions of the world displayed in 21st-century homes. But vintage maps from second-hand stores, estate sales, flea markets and Web dealers are being hung everywhere, from nurseries to bachelor pads to the living rooms of Washington's establishmentarians. "I like to look at them for hours at a time," says David Fenstermaker, a financial adviser who displays rare, old maps in his Fairfax County home and in his office downtown. He hunts for them on visits to European cities such as London and Florence, and on the Web. His favorite is a 1660 Blaeu map of the Caribbean in confectionery greens and Bermuda pinks, tall black-edged ships overtaking the ocean. "Florida is much too fat, the Yucatan is much too skinny. . . . It's a very pretty map." "Now you can use a GPS locator to tell you exactly what street corner you are on, but there was a time when things were far less determined," says Fenstermaker. He likes "having maps of a time when there were blank spaces, or ones where terra incognito is rendered with a giant Cyclops, as it is on a 1550 woodblock-print map of Africa that Fenstermaker covets. "My wife doesn't like maps without colors, though." One dealer lists that map for $1,150. For some enthusiasts, maps recall an adventure once taken, or maybe just dreamt of. Amy Alvarez, a telecom lobbyist, has an 1860 map of the hemispheres in the mocha foyer of her Adams Morgan apartment. "I retrace my own travels and think about exotic places I still long to visit, like the islands in the South Pacific or North Africa," she says. "It makes me realize there is a whole other world to explore." One recent icy Saturday, Scott Muchow, a young political consultant, stopped by Tam's stall after a midmorning jog, checking to see if Tam had been able to find a map of the Belsize Park neighborhood in London, where he once lived. In the meantime, he picked up "a great color map of the London Underground system" from 1900. Muchow says he's not much of a decorator: He's never painted a room or hung a curtain, and his stamp-size Capitol Hill English basement apartment includes an avocado refrigerator and Day-Glo blue cabinets. But he has begun to civilize the bedroom, where two walls are covered with maps. The maps "show connections to the cities I love," he says. "Old maps are more interesting; they say a lot more. You see how things change, how things evolved." In their Dupont Circle condo, Chip Cannon and Jaime Crowe are designing a room to showcase their collection of antique maps, including one commemorating a Napoleon-era trip up the Nile, another of Andalusia, Crowe's mother's homeland. The room will likely also be the dining room, where they spend a lot of time, says Cannon. There won't be any furniture along the walls, so "you can walk up to them," he says. Kate Ogden, a telecom sales manager shopping at Tam's, says a childhood summer in Provence inspired her purchase of an 1886 peach and robin's-egg blue map of "Cotes de la Mediterranee" for $35. She says she likes the "continuity" suggested by old maps. Her Arlington home with its tulip-yellow and salsa-colored walls is filled with old prints and bright paintings; she thinks her French map might look good on a tangerine wall where a Matisse poster now hangs. For his Arlington high-rise apartment with a view of Washington Monument, health-care consultant Don Lucas found a framed map of Western Pennsylvania, circa 1897, at Tam's stall, "and pulled it out immediately." His family has lived in Allegheny County in the same house for six generations, but these days he only gets home about once a year. The map "reminds me of my family roots," he says, so he plans to hang it in his living room, "where I can see it frequently." "Maps evoke memories or are dream material," says Bill Stoehr, president of National Geographic Maps, a division of the National Geographic Society. He hangs maps next to the NordicTrack in his Colorado home so he can "get lost" in them while working out. "Every time you look at a map, you notice something new. I think -- 'Huh: Vienna is that close to Budapest?' and you think about how borders are always changing," Stoehr says. © 2003 The Washington Post Company (2) www.washingtonpost.com http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59945-2003Jan29.html More Directions to Maps Thursday, January 30, 2003; THE WASHINGTON POST; Page H04 At National Geographic's shop in downtown Washington, the map section is a big draw. Mostly modern maps, priced from about $12, are sold there as well as on the Web . Two years ago, the society issued an antique-looking map of today's world suitable for framing and is planning to create a wallpaper version. The traditional National Geographic world political map also comes as a wall mural (plasma.nationalgeographic.com/maps; 800-962-1643). Washington is a good place to be if you are interested in maps. The largest map collection in the world -- more than 4.9 million examples -- is at the Library of Congress: A special display of antique maps is in the James Madison Memorial Building, 101 Independence Ave. SE, and many maps can be viewed online at www.loc.gov. A limited variety of old maps are sold in the shop at the Jefferson Building (202-707-3895), and the geography and map division's reference section can order uncopyrighted maps (202-707-6277).Among other sources: • The Washington Map Society meets eight times a year at the Library of Congress to promote map collecting, cartography and cartographic history (www.washmap.org). • The site for the International Antiquarian Mapsellers Association has a collector's page, a selection of members' map inventories contains information on map fairs and maintains reports of stolen maps and atlases (www.antiquemapdealers.com). • MapForum.Com has a specialist antique map periodical featuring a beginner's guide to collecting, an auction report and information on map libraries (www.mapforum.com). by Elizabeth Festa © 2003 The Washington Post Company *************************************************** Thomas F. Sander Phone (703) 426-2880 Editor, The Portolan Fax (703) 426-2881 Washington Map Society E-mail Sanderva@erols.com P. O. Box 10793 Burke, VA 22009-0793 USA Web Sites: Washington Map Society: http://www.washmap.org/ The Portolan: http://home.earthlink.net/~docktor/portolan.htm *************************************************** "Without geography, you're nowhere." _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "tony campbell" To: "*MapHist" Subject: [MapHist] Changes to the 'Map History' site Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:47:57 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 The two largest pages on the 'Map History' site had recently grown too large, and therefore too slow, and have been broken down, in each case, into 12 sub-pages. The sections in question are:- * Images of early maps on the web < http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps/webimages.html > * Web articles and commentaries on specific topics in the History of cartography < http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps/webtexts.html > Each had over 500 links, which meant that page-loading took too long. I hope that the new arrangement is easier. A Freefind box has been added so that you can search across all the pages in that section (and, indeed, across the site). However, entries are usually repeated if they cover two different subjects or areas. 'Map History' is not primarily a links site. Nevertheless, it does have around 2,400 links at the moment. I have just finished checking those with the free linkchecker, Xenu. As a result, a number of dead links have been removed. Please make a point of letting me know if there are any links that are still not working or any other errors you notice. With the site now spread over 135 pages, it is not possible to keep checking them all regularly. It seems important to me that 'Map History' is kept up to date and with fully functioning links. However, linkchecking is time-consuming, and interrupts the search for new information. Might one among you be interested in helping with this? It should be done every month or two, but would not involve a lot of work. Nor would you need to be an expert. The necessary skills could be easily learnt. If this might appeal to you, please contact me OFFLIST for further information - without any obligation! I have been running 'Map History' (with considerable satisfaction and enjoyment, I must emphasise) for six years. A recent article (in Dutch) by Marco van Egmond, about Oddens' Bookmarks and 'Map History' concluded (from the English abstract): "Both portals are complementary to each other. To maintain the portals for the near future it is necessary to institutionalize and to formalize their implementatiion" (Caert-Thresoor, 2002:3, p.77). Well, fairly recently, I left an institution (the British Library) and am happy to be what my predecessor Helen Wallis described, with approval, as a 'free-range chicken'. Therefore, no institutionalisation quite yet. But, just as 'Map History' sees itself as part of a collaborating network - with the sites of, among others, Bill Barrow, John Doctor, Peter van der Krogt, Boudewijn Meijer, Roelof Oddens, and Paul Rascoe - so it may be appropriate for me to seek a little help from the wider map community. Finally, for those who find such details interesting, I have added a site statistics page < http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps/sitestats.html >. I would be happy to receive comments on that. Thank you Tony Campbell ***************************************** 76 Ockendon Road London N1 3NW UK t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk Tel: 020 7359 6477 International: +44 20 7359 6477 ****************************************** 'Map History / History of Cartography: THE Gateway to the Subject' http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Subject: RE: [MapHist] charts Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 11:02:17 -0500 Thread-Topic: [MapHist] charts Thread-Index: AcLH0P96tAcUBWh3Q7WsWNmxQRgR7gAp3UOw From: "Hyman, John" To: X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id RAA29620 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Ashley: Thanks. That's the first tangible bit of evidence I've seen. I should have known who would furnish it. John -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Baynton-Williams [mailto:Ashley.bw@BTINTERNET.COM] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 2:49 PM To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] charts John Hyman asked: "has anyone seen sets of charts held together in similar fashion? Is anyone willing to hazard a guess as to the reason for this treatment as opposed to, for example, linen-mounting all the sheets to form a complete chart". John, The likelihood is that the string is original, rather than later. A simplistic suggestion is that it is the contemporary equivalent of stapling. I haven't seen it on charts before, but I have on multi-sheet English maps. I would suggest that Ainslie's publisher, HM Customs and Excise, simply wanted to ensure the sheets of each chart stayed together in transit and storage, and that further action - binding, backing, joining or whatever - could be undertaken when the customer made the purchase, thus limiting costs until some income came in. Ashley Baynton-Williams _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] charts Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:32:15 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 And the string-through-corner-hole - followed by metal folding 'staple' - was certainly a procedure used by the [British] War Office's and by the Survey of India's Map Collections - as evidenced by materials here. The latter also have sewn string or cotton in the corners of multi-sheet map sets; and this prevents us - for 'archival integrity' reasons - from removing these ties for photocopying any but the top sheet in our A0 copier. Francis Herbert (Curator of Maps and pieces of string, RGS-IBG) f.herbert&rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives'] -----Original Message----- From: Hyman, John [mailto:JHyman@cwf.org] Sent: 30 January 2003 16:02 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] charts Ashley: Thanks. That's the first tangible bit of evidence I've seen. I should have known who would furnish it. John -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Baynton-Williams [mailto:Ashley.bw@BTINTERNET.COM] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 2:49 PM To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] charts John Hyman asked: "has anyone seen sets of charts held together in similar fashion? Is anyone willing to hazard a guess as to the reason for this treatment as opposed to, for example, linen-mounting all the sheets to form a complete chart". John, The likelihood is that the string is original, rather than later. A simplistic suggestion is that it is the contemporary equivalent of stapling. I haven't seen it on charts before, but I have on multi-sheet English maps. I would suggest that Ainslie's publisher, HM Customs and Excise, simply wanted to ensure the sheets of each chart stayed together in transit and storage, and that further action - binding, backing, joining or whatever - could be undertaken when the customer made the purchase, thus limiting costs until some income came in. Ashley Baynton-Williams _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 12:36:57 -0500 (EST) From: Ralph Salomon To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] looking for GARY WELLER FRM CANADA X-Mailer: Earthlink Web Access Mail version 3.0 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 If anyone knows contact info for GARY WELLER, map abd book dealer from canada, I urgently need to get in touch with him... Thanks, Ralph Salomon Ralph Salomon _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "tony campbell" To: "*MapHist" , "*Lismaps" , "*Liber-GdC" Subject: [MapHist] Recent doctorates in the HoC Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 18:56:36 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 [posted to MapHist, lismaps, Liber GdC - please excuse duplication and pass on to others who might be interested] Once again, I am compiling a list of all the recently awarded doctorates that are in, or closely related to, the History of Cartography. This will be included in the 'Personal News' section of the next Imago Mundi 'Chronicle', to be published in July. As always, much of the information comes from ProQuest < http://wwwlib.umi.com/dissertations/gateway/main >. This, inevitably, means that many of the PhDs listed are from the US and Canada. The list that follows at the *end* of this message represents all those I know about at present. Please help me to make the listing more representative. I *know* there must have been other awards, particularly in Europe. Who do you know (or *think*) has been awarded a PhD in the past year or so? Please send me - in the next *few days* - the following information, or the email of the person concerned:- Full Names: University and department: Date awarded: Dissertation title: Publication details (if relevant): If you wonder if the information has already been recorded - and I am interested in *any* doctorates awarded from 1995 onwards - please look at the cumulative Doctorates page on 'Map History' < http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps/phd.html >. The latest names will be added to that page in the next week or so, once 'Chronicle' has been completed. I am also interested in anybody who is currently working towards a doctorate involving early maps. Please let me have details OFFLIST. Thank you. ***************************************** Tony Campbell 76 Ockendon Road London N1 3NW UK t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk Tel: 020 7359 6477 International: +44 20 7359 6477 ****************************************** 'Map History / History of Cartography: THE Gateway to the Subject' http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps ----------------- Recent Doctorates ------------------- Where a UMI number is given, entering that into the 'Pub Number' search option on the UMI Proquest site gives access to a 24-page preview . William R. Bignell, University of Exeter, Department of Geography, January 2001. 'The cartographic representation of landscape features by the Ordnance Survey: a nineteenth century perspective' [discussing the depiction of windmills on OS maps]. Vladimir Erikovich Bulatov, Russian Academy of Sciences, Institute of the History of Science and Technology, Department of the History of Earth Sciences, April 2002. 'Kartografirovanie zarubezhnykh akvatoriy Admiralteyskoy kollegiey' [Charting of foreign seas by the [Russian] Admiralty]. Leonid Sergeevich Chekin, Department of the History of Geography and Geology of the Russian Academy of Sciences' Institute of the History of Science and Technology, May 2002. 'Kartografiya Khristianskogo Srednevekov'ya' [Cartography of the Christian Middle Ages]. Lucy Payne Chester, Yale University, Department of History, December 2002. 'Drawing the Indo-Pakistani Boundary during the 1947 Partition of South Asia'. Raymond Craib, Yale University, Department of History, December 2001. 'State fixations and fugitive landscapes: surveying, mapping and the spatial creation of modern Mexico, 1850-1930'. Kathryn A. Ebel, University of Texas at Austin, Department of Geography, August 2002. 'City Views, Imperial Visions: Cartography and the Visual Culture of Urban Space in the Ottoman Empire, 1453-1603'. Manonmani Filliozat, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes (Paris), November 2002. 'L'océan Oriental: connaissances hydrographiques françaises aux XVIIe et XVIIIe siècles'. Elisabeth Danielle Hodges, Harvard University, Romance Languages & Literatures, May 2002. 'City views: Writing and the topography of Frenchness in the Renaissance'. UMI No. AAT 3051186. James William Kelly, University of Oxford, English Faculty, May 2002. 'Daniel Defoe's voyage narratives'. Hélène Lhoumeau, Université de Paris-Sorbonne, Ecole nationale des chartes, 2000. 'Les expéditions françaises en Floride (1562-1568)'. See, for long summary, < http://www.enc.sorbonne.fr/th%E8ses/2000/lhoumeau.htm >. Kenneth Pearce Mitchell, University of Minnesota, July 2002. 'In pursuit of empire: French and Spanish colonialism in North America, 1590-1640'. UMI No. AAT 3056342. Iffet Orbay, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Department of Architecture, June 2001. 'Istanbul viewed: the representation of the city in Ottoman maps of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries'. Alex Claire Purves, University of Pennsylvania, 2002. 'Telling space: Topography, time, and narrative from Homer to Xenophon (Greece)'. UMI No. AAT 3043943. Patrice Ract, Université de Paris-Sorbonne, Ecole nationale des chartes, 2000. 'Les ingénieurs géographes des camps et armées du roi, de la guerre de Sept Ans à la Révolution (1756-1791): étude institutionnelle, prosopographique et sociale'. See, for long summary, < http://www.enc.sorbonne.fr/th%E8ses/2002/ract.htm >. Christopher Jacob Ries, University Centre of Roskilde, Institute for History and Society, European Cultural Studies, September 2002. 'Lauge Koch sagen den danske geolog strid 1935-38' [about the Danish geologist who mapped North East Greenland]. Michael Frederick Robinson, University of Wisconsin-Madison, 2002. 'The coldest crucible: Arctic exploration and American culture, 1850-1910'. AAT 3049319. Morten Stenak, Syddansk Universitet, Institute for History, Culture and Society, Cartographical Documentation Center, October 2002. 'De inddæmmede landskaber ' [The reclaimed land] (A historical-geographical investigation of cultural technology, land use and cultural environment in Denmark). _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl From: Ottomantom@cs.com Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:01:51 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] 'Oldest star chart' found To: peter@vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: CompuServe 7.0 for Windows US sub 8001 I regret the error and I appreciate your letting me know about it. I have no idea how a Turk in Ankara managed to send me a message via the MAPHIST list. Without thinking about the address I replied. (I have now found a way to respond to him directly.) Would it be better to send a note of apology to the entire list? Sometimes the apology is more of a bother than the original error.
       Looking forward to seeing you this coming June in Cambridge and Portland, Maine.
Tom Goodrich X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:31:30 -0500 From: Overlee Farm Books X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] looking for GARY WELLER FRM CANADA Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 If you haven't found out by now, try Eric at The Wayfarer's Bookshop in Vancouver (604) 921-4196.I hope the guy does'nt owe you money. Martin Ralph Salomon wrote: > If anyone knows contact info for GARY WELLER, map abd book dealer from canada, I urgently need to get in touch with him... > > Thanks, > Ralph Salomon > > Ralph Salomon > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:16:08 -0500 From: Overlee Farm Books X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] (no subject) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Peter: Apologies for hitting the reply button in error. Martin Torodash _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:29:33 -0800 (PST) From: Frances Woodward To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] looking for GARY WELLER FRM CANADA Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I could find only one Gary Weller in Canada in the online directory. Do you by any chance mean Angus Weller? Weller Cartographic Services Ltd. 2960 Cosgrove Crescent Nanaimo, BC V9S 3P8 Email: weller@axion.net Web: http://www.mapmatrix.com Angus' website does not give a telephone number. He does have an online map catalogue and map and bookstore. I hope this is the one you want. Fran Woodward On Thu, 30 Jan 2003, Overlee Farm Books wrote: > If you haven't found out by now, try Eric at The Wayfarer's Bookshop in Vancouver (604) 921-4196.I hope the guy does'nt owe > you money. Martin > > Ralph Salomon wrote: > > > If anyone knows contact info for GARY WELLER, map abd book dealer from canada, I urgently need to get in touch with him... > > > > Thanks, > > Ralph Salomon > > > > Ralph Salomon > > _______________________________________________________________ > > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > > the views of the author. > > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > ************************************************************************** Frances Woodward, Reference Librarian, Rare Books and Special Collections, Main Library, University of British Columbia, 1956 Main Mall, Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z1 Tel: (604) 822-2819 Fax: (604) 822-9587 E-mail: franwood@interchange.ubc.ca URL: http://www.library.ubc.ca/spcoll/ Historical Maps Collection and Cartographic Archives Arkley Collection of Early & Historical Children's Literature ************************************************************************** _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 09:36:48 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Peter van der Krogt Subject: [MapHist] VSB Fonds grants Explokart a large subsidy X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id JAA02209 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Yesterday was officially announced that the VSB Fonds has granted the volunteer project of Explokart, the research program in the history of cartography of Utrecht University a subsidy of €540,000 (c. $600,000). In Explokart's volunteer are working about 38 volunteers in 18 cartobibliographical projects. Two of the groups have already published their work (Hollandia Comitatus and Guicciardini Illustratus). The subsidy of the VSB Fonds is meant to make it possible to publish the results of the other groups in the coming years and to make their work available for a reasonable price. The first project to be published with help of this subsidy will be the cartobibliography of maps and topographical prints in collections of pamphets in Dutch libraries. This work is compiled by Han Voogt and Hans Ingen-Housz, who checked 25,000 pamphlets. The 20 Explokart volunteer projects are (the subsidy is for projects 3-20): 1. Map bibliography of the County of Holland: Hollandia Comitatus Published in November 2000. 2. Maps, plans and city views of the seventeen Provinces published by Lodovico Guicciardini in: Descrittione di tutti I Paesi Bassi, 1567-1662 in 26 editions. Published in November 2001. 3. Maps and plans in Dutch pamphlets until 1648. Publication planned for late 2003. 4. Maps, plans and town views in Dutch publications concerning travels to the area of the formerly Sovjet-Union and Poland (16th-18th century). 5. Maps in bibles published in the Seventeen Provinces, c. 1450-1800. 6. Carto-bibliography of the Duchy of Brabant. 7. Carto-bibliography of Africa 8. The cartographical work of the 17th century Amsterdam publisher Jacob van Meurs. 9. Carto-bibliography of the Province of Friesland. 10. Bibliography of Dutch polder maps. 11. Carto-bibliography of the Provinces of Overijssel and Drenthe. 12. Bibliography of maps of the Zuiderzee. 13. Bibliography of maps of Ceylon of the Dutch East-Indian Company. 14. Carto-bibliography of the Province of Zeeland. 15. Carto-bibliography of maps published in the German Journal Petermanns Geographische Mitteilungen, 1855-1945. 16. Carto-bibliography of the Province of Gelderland. 17. The cartographical work of Von Derfelden van Hinderstein 18. The cartographical work of Covens & Mortier 19. Carto-bibliography of Dutch wall maps 20. Carto-bibliography of Manuscript maps of the Dutch East-India Company (VOC) N.B. The 21st group works on 18th century atlases. This group is preparing a planned volume for Van der Krogt's Koeman's Atlantes Neerlandici. More information about the Explokart program is at http://cartography.geog.uu.nl/explokart/index.html YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY Dr Peter van der Krogt Map Historian, Explokart Research Program Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht P.O. Box 80.115 3508 TC UTRECHT, The Netherlands e-mail: peter@maphist.nl Homepage: MapHist: Genealogy: Elementymology: Columbus Monuments: YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY PER ANGUSTA AD AUGUSTA YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 10:37:47 -0600 From: Larry McKenna Subject: [MapHist] charts and their bindings To: maphist@geog.uu.nl User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 John, Assuming these were meant to be working charts (i.e., used on a vessel), I would guess the reason your Ainsile charts are tied, and not lined-mounted, has to do with the small chart tables most vessels have. Large charts are often unwieldy at sea; smaller charts are much more manageable, and can be used without folding. Finally, the loose binding allows the navigator easy access to all the sheets, even in tight confines. Of course, all this is predicated on my assumption these were supposed to be working charts...and it always seems to be bad assumptions that leads to a sunk vessel. Cheers, Larry Larry McKenna, Ph. D. President, Working Knowledge 11443 Conser St., Suite 201 Overland Park, KS 66210-2676 lmckenna@everestkc.net voice: 913.269.5642 fax: 913.661.9134 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 09:25:37 -0800 Subject: Re: [MapHist] VSB Fonds grants Explokart a large subsidy X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 From: Paul Boyd Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 The VSB Fonds/Utrecht University research program looks wonderful. Perhaps I have missed something or misinterpreted the list, but can you say does it cover maps of New Netherland from the 1600s? Paul Boyd On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 09:36:48 +0100 Peter van der Krogt writes: > > Yesterday was officially announced that the VSB Fonds has granted > the > volunteer project of Explokart, the research program in the history > of > cartography of Utrecht University a subsidy of €540,000 (c. > $600,000). > In Explokart's volunteer are working about 38 volunteers in 18 > cartobibliographical projects. Two of the groups have already > published > their work (Hollandia Comitatus and Guicciardini Illustratus). > The subsidy of the VSB Fonds is meant to make it possible to publish > the > results of the other groups in the coming years and to make their > work > available for a reasonable price. > > The first project to be published with help of this subsidy will be > the > cartobibliography of maps and topographical prints in collections of > > pamphets in Dutch libraries. This work is compiled by Han Voogt and > Hans > Ingen-Housz, who checked 25,000 pamphlets. > > The 20 Explokart volunteer projects are (the subsidy is for projects > 3-20): > > 1. Map bibliography of the County of Holland: Hollandia > Comitatus > Published in November 2000. > 2. Maps, plans and city views of the seventeen Provinces > published by > Lodovico Guicciardini in: Descrittione di tutti I Paesi Bassi, > 1567-1662 in > 26 editions. Published in November 2001. > > 3. Maps and plans in Dutch pamphlets until 1648. Publication > planned > for late 2003. > 4. Maps, plans and town views in Dutch publications concerning > travels > to the area of the formerly Sovjet-Union and Poland (16th-18th > century). > 5. Maps in bibles published in the Seventeen Provinces, c. > 1450-1800. > 6. Carto-bibliography of the Duchy of Brabant. > 7. Carto-bibliography of Africa > 8. The cartographical work of the 17th century Amsterdam > publisher > Jacob van Meurs. > 9. Carto-bibliography of the Province of Friesland. > 10. Bibliography of Dutch polder maps. > 11. Carto-bibliography of the Provinces of Overijssel and Drenthe. > 12. Bibliography of maps of the Zuiderzee. > 13. Bibliography of maps of Ceylon of the Dutch East-Indian > Company. > 14. Carto-bibliography of the Province of Zeeland. > 15. Carto-bibliography of maps published in the German Journal > Petermanns > Geographische Mitteilungen, 1855-1945. > 16. Carto-bibliography of the Province of Gelderland. > 17. The cartographical work of Von Derfelden van Hinderstein > 18. The cartographical work of Covens & Mortier > 19. Carto-bibliography of Dutch wall maps > 20. Carto-bibliography of Manuscript maps of the Dutch East-India > Company (VOC) > > N.B. The 21st group works on 18th century atlases. This group is > preparing > a planned volume for Van der Krogt's Koeman's Atlantes Neerlandici. > > More information about the Explokart program is at > http://cartography.geog.uu.nl/explokart/index.html > > > > > YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY > Dr Peter van der Krogt > Map Historian, Explokart Research Program > Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht > P.O. Box 80.115 > 3508 TC UTRECHT, The Netherlands > e-mail: peter@maphist.nl > Homepage: > MapHist: > Genealogy: > Elementymology: > Columbus Monuments: > > YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY PER ANGUSTA AD AUGUSTA YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of > Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility > for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > > ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Waldo Tobler" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] looking for GARY WELLER FRM CANADA Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 10:47:07 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Try Barry Weller, A geographer at a canadian University. -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl]On Behalf Of Frances Woodward Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 2:30 PM To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] looking for GARY WELLER FRM CANADA I could find only one Gary Weller in Canada in the online directory. Do you by any chance mean Angus Weller? Weller Cartographic Services Ltd. 2960 Cosgrove Crescent Nanaimo, BC V9S 3P8 Email: weller@axion.net Web: http://www.mapmatrix.com Angus' website does not give a telephone number. He does have an online map catalogue and map and bookstore. I hope this is the one you want. Fran Woodward On Thu, 30 Jan 2003, Overlee Farm Books wrote: > If you haven't found out by now, try Eric at The Wayfarer's Bookshop in Vancouver (604) 921-4196.I hope the guy does'nt owe > you money. Martin > > Ralph Salomon wrote: > > > If anyone knows contact info for GARY WELLER, map abd book dealer from canada, I urgently need to get in touch with him... > > > > Thanks, > > Ralph Salomon > > > > Ralph Salomon > > _______________________________________________________________ > > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > > the views of the author. > > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > ************************************************************************** Frances Woodward, Reference Librarian, Rare Books and Special Collections, Main Library, University of British Columbia, 1956 Main Mall, Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z1 Tel: (604) 822-2819 Fax: (604) 822-9587 E-mail: franwood@interchange.ubc.ca URL: http://www.library.ubc.ca/spcoll/ Historical Maps Collection and Cartographic Archives Arkley Collection of Early & Historical Children's Literature ************************************************************************** _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 12:18:36 -0900 From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [MapHist] VSB Fonds grants Explokart a large subsidy X-Sender: deelong@mail.gci.net To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Congratulations, Peter and crew! Well deserved recognition of your ongoing work. The fine conference last October piqued my interest in you seagoing Dutch, now exploring the history of cartography. Dee >Yesterday was officially announced that the VSB Fonds has granted >the volunteer project of Explokart, the research program in the >history of cartography of Utrecht University a subsidy of *540,000 >(c. $600,000). >In Explokart's volunteer are working about 38 volunteers in 18 >cartobibliographical projects. Two of the groups have already >published their work (Hollandia Comitatus and Guicciardini >Illustratus). >The subsidy of the VSB Fonds is meant to make it possible to publish >the results of the other groups in the coming years and to make >their work available for a reasonable price. > -- The Observatory,ABAA 200 North Franklin Juneau, Alaska 99801 deelong@alaska.com http://www.observatorybooks.com Our 25th Year _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 13:01:21 -0900 From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [MapHist] charts and their bindings X-Sender: deelong@mail.gci.net To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 >Larry wrote: >Assuming these were meant to be working charts (i.e., used on a vessel), I >would guess the reason your Ainsile charts are tied, and not lined-mounted, >has to do with the small chart tables most vessels have. Large charts are >often unwieldy at sea; smaller charts are much more manageable, and can be >used without folding. Finally, the loose binding allows the navigator easy >access to all the sheets, even in tight confines. Of course, all this is >predicated on my assumption these were supposed to be working charts...and >it always seems to be bad assumptions that leads to a sunk vessel. > The only way I've ever seen or used working charts are as a roll with the name printed on the outside; e.g. "Chatham Strait to Icy Strait". They're kept in a chart rack mounted overhead. Fancier boats have pigeon holes, but I've never seen charts stored flat. However, I am a 20th century boater only, so perhaps the custom was formerly different. De -- The Observatory,ABAA 200 North Franklin Juneau, Alaska 99801 deelong@alaska.com http://www.observatorybooks.com Our 25th Year _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl