MapHist Indexed Hard Copies - Comments

The concept of a printed version of the discussion of an e-mail discussiongroup generated a lot of comment. Here follows the -unedited- discussion after I sent the announcement on 8 March 1996:

Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 08:09:17 -0500
Reply-To: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
Sender: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
From: Duane F Marble <dmarble@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: MapHist Hardcopies 1994-1995 available
In-Reply-To: <199603080734.CAA16124@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> from "Peter van der Krogt" at Mar 8, 96 08:32:30 am

While I .think this is an excellent idea and I intend to order copies, I do want to point out that it clearly illuminates some of the legal questions with respect to the Internet. Questions that, as far as I know, are not even resolved within the context of a single country let alone internationally.
Suppose I do not want my contributions included or that I object to the editing, who do I sue? Can I sue? Who is responsible?

Suppose I place a high value on the material of mine that is included, who do I bill for its use?

Questions such as these are currently providing the legal profession with a whole new area to play with...

In the meantime, these compilations will be very useful!

--
Duane F. Marble E-mail: marble.1@osu.edu
Dept. of Geography Home Page: http://thoth.sbs.ohio-state.edu
The Ohio State University Telephone: (614) 292-2250
Columbus, OH 43210 Fax: (614) 292-6213

Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 15:03:33 +0100
Reply-To: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
Sender: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
From: Peter van der Krogt <krogt@PI.NET>
Subject: MapHist Hardcopies 1994-1995 available?

Duane Marble wrote:

>I do want to point out that it clearly illuminates some of the legal >questions with respect to the Internet. Questions that, as far as I >know, are not even resolved within the context of a single country let >alone internationally.

The question of copyrights was indeed the major problem why I hesitated to make my hardcopies available. This was one of the questions I asked to the eminent MapHisters mentioned at the end of my article.

I made the announcement after I received the following message from David Cobb:

>Peter - I suggest that the decision is yours! A digital database >technically is copyrighted by its "originator", however, in this case, we >have all contributed and I suspect none of us are particularly concerned >re copyright in this instance. I would suggest that Peter ANNOUNCE his >index on the list and discover how many persons may be interested.

Duane Marble further wrote:

> who do I sue? Can I sue? Who is responsible? > Suppose I place a high value on the material of mine that is included, who do I bill for its use?

Why do Americans always think on suing and money-making? This kind of attitude discourages all further initiatives. Maybe I must keep my hardcopies for myself of only for personal friends.

I want to *emphasize* that I make no profit. On the contrary, when I sell less than 60 copies (15% of the subscribers to MapHist, and that's a high estimate) I make a loss. On the other hand, in the extraordinary case that 100 or even more people order a copy, I keep a reserve to give a discount on the 1996 copy

I am sorry that the first public reaction on MapHist after my announcement is one of this kind.

Peter

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Dr Peter van der Krogt
FRW-Cartography
University of Utrecht Mijerstraat 20
P.O. Box 80.115 2613 XM DELFT
3508 TC UTRECHT The Netherlands
tel. +31 30 253 2052 fax: +31 15 212 6063
email: krogt@pi.net
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Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 10:25:47 -0500
Reply-To: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
Sender: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
From: Duane F Marble <dmarble@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: MapHist Hardcopies 1994-1995 available?
In-Reply-To: <199603081504.KAA13618@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> from "Peter van der Krogt" at Mar 8, 96 03:03:33 pm

I was in no way attacking Peter's valuable effort. A more careful reading of my post will reveal that it was positive in nature. I indicated that there are significant questions being raised about the Internet - this was a point of information not a criticism of the work that was done.

As for the U.S. view, it was the German government who recently forced an international supplier of net services to close off a number of news groups. The problem of what is the net and how is it to be handled is an international one and it is not going to be resolved by ignoring the questions that are being raised by many individuals in many countries.

Again Peter, thanks for the useful work. My order is in the mail.

--
Duane F. Marble E-mail: marble.1@osu.edu
Dept. of Geography Home Page: http://thoth.sbs.ohio-state.edu
The Ohio State University Telephone: (614) 292-2250
Columbus, OH 43210 Fax: (614) 292-6213

Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 11:40:37 EST
Reply-To: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
Sender: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
From: "Mode, P. J." <pmode@PSI.WILMER.COM>
Subject: Hardcopies and the Law

As an American -- indeed, as the worst kind of American, a LAWYER -- I can report that not every American thinks first or only of suing and money-making. Having flailed without success in trying to use the Archives of MapHist, my first and only reaction to Peter van der Krogt's message was one of delight. I intend to be among the very first purchasers of the "paperback" edition.

With the caveat that I am not serving as anyone's counsel on this matter, and without a lot of boring detail, let me add a word on the law. The two areas of law principally involved in questions such as those posed by Prof. Marble are copyright and privacy. Given the facts here, the proposed publication of the Archives is almost certainly protected against copyright claims by the doctrines of "implied permission" or "fair use" or both. The law of privacy is founded on reasonable expectations, and it is not reasonable to expect that a communication sent to 400 strangers (and available to 20 million others worldwide) would be maintained in confidence. In addition, every subscriber to the List is now on notice and is free to ask Peter to omit his or her contributions before he goes to press; that opportunity gives him yet another level of protection.

In short, I hope that the legal question will neither discourage publication of this useful material nor distract from the thanks due the publisher.

pjmode@wilmer.com

Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 12:43:09 EST
Reply-To: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
Sender: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
From: HelenJane Armstrong <HJARMS@NERVM.NERDC.UFL.EDU>
Subject: MapHist publication

This morning I sent a direct EMail message to Peter van der Krogt to inform him that we were very interested in obtaining the hard copies of Maphist for the University of Florida Map & Imagery Library. In the message, I expressed my appreciation for his many efforts in bringing togather all of the MapHist discussions. Also I thanked him for taking the inniative and especially for eliminating all the junk and misdirected mail. This message was sent after Duane Marble's message but before the subsequent replys. Now I realize I was remiss in not posting a general message of interest and appreciation to Peter van der Krogt on MapHist.

At the University of Florida we have several good historical/rare map collections for Florida, Latin America and the "Holy Lands". Unfortunately these are only about 10% of our total collection of over 700,000 items. So while they have a special place in my heart I can not spend as much time with them as I would like. Therefore, while I have not participated in many of the discussions, I have been an interested reader who has enjoyed the serious as well as humorous exchanges. The knowledge, enthusiasm and willingness to share information has been wonderful. A significant number of these were printed out and now reside in my information files. Thus when I read Peter's message I was enthusiastic that someone had taken the time to organize and condense the information into two books. Besides being more efficient to use it will free badly needed storage space and I can recycle reims of paper. While these practical factors are important, I am looking forward to acquiring the 1994 messages from before I joined the list as well those deleated in error. I had delayed doing this because of the time involved in accessing the archives. It was important to me that Peter van der Krogt had sought advice and comments from the originator of the list as well as other respected map historians. Their enthusiasm was the deciding factor in our decision to acquire the hard copies. from some very respected persons in the fiel While I understand the Duane's concern, I feel very thankful that Peter decided so take this project on and to publicly thank him.

HelenJane Armstrong
Head, Map & Imagery Library
University of Florida
Gainesville, Fl. 32611
USA

Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 14:26:00 EST
Reply-To: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
Sender: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
Comments: <Parser> E: "From:"/"Sender:" field is missing.
From: Undetermined origin c/o Postmaster <POSTMASTER@HARVARDA.BITNET>

Eudora 1.5.4
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 14:35:13 -0500
To: MAPHIST@HARVARDA.HARVARD.EDU
From: fkoks@achilles.net (Frans Koks)
Subject: Re:Maphist publication

I move that we go even further and register the 1994-1995 discussion list as a publication. That way, most of us will have the benefit of receiving official recognition for their intellectual and informative labor. Those of us who feel that their contributions were "indecent" - the latest Congressional doctrine - or subject to lawsuits: go ahead and have your work removed. Paranoia, however, is not a particularly good basis for exchanging *ideas* on a Listserv.

********************************************************************
Frans Koks ** Fax: (613) 562-5995
University of Ottawa ** E-mail: fkoks@achilles.net
** (also: s056119@aix1.uottawa.ca)
********************************************************************

Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 21:31:11 +0100
Reply-To: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
Sender: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
From: Peter van der Krogt <krogt@PI.NET>
Subject: Re: Hardcopies and the Law

Thank you mr. Mode for your reassuring comment. Lawyers are not so bad. I was too quick with my judgement on Americans. But this matter was precisely why I first hesitated to make my hardcopies public, and then I got as the first reaction one which speaks about suing and bills!

I hope further discussions on these copyright questions will take place off-list - after all, our subject is MAPs and their HISTory.

Peter

Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 15:01:38 -0600
Reply-To: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
Sender: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
From: Mccorkle Barbara <BMCCORKL@UKANVAX.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Hardcopies and the Law
In-Reply-To: <01I23L5Q5GV68XT8SW@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU>

I think many of us will be ordering Peter van der Krogt's list, and I think we all join in Helen-Jane Armstrong's accolade of appreciation. Peter, I'll be surprised if you don't sell enough copies to clear your costs! Would you mind letting us know? Barbara

Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 23:14:57 +0100
Reply-To: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
Sender: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
From: Christian Jacob <jacob@MSH-PARIS.FR>
Subject: Re: MapHist publication

Dear all,

At first, I thought it was a pre-Fool day training (Hi, Ed !), but it seems it is not.

I am impressed by Peter's project and work, and the feedback he got so far shows that such a book will be useful. Perhaps some additional thoughts (this is NOT a criticism, only questions).

- On a technological level, it is interesting to see that email and the lists had the primary function to make the communication between people easier, faster and cheaper, and to allow new ways of exchanging ideas and info. We see that this great tool has also its limits, and that in order to keep the info available and usable, we have to come back to the printed medium, with an heavy editing process. This is an interesting shift from the "real time" communication to the yearly update, from the "amnesia" of the digital era to the printed memory of the book, from the Harvard computers to the Utrecht printers ! And this is a real problem for the "academic" and "scholarly" users of the net, if archiving, browsing, searching and... reading are actually far more difficult with the electronic texts than with the printed books !

- I have a little concern about the fact that the MapHist publication could change the way we communicate together through the list. Electronic writing allows to send short mails, with questions, answers, datas, information, in a very informal way, in the same way as colleagues could talk together. Sending a message to MapHist is NOT writing a paper. This is often giving a feedback, a reaction hic et nunc, a contribution to a dialogue.

These debates and exchanges are heavily relying on circumstancial factors - their dynamics, the personal interest and involvement of subscribers. I would say that, quite often, they stop at the step where an in-depth scholarly work would begin. MapHist is great for getting information about facts, for exchanging views, for beta-testing a topic - is such a question relevant and how rich is a given corpus (cf. the "maps and poetry" thread) ? Most of the threads open directions and suggest topics (cf. the "art and cartography", the "what is map" threads). But they give a partial, limited and subjective treatment to these topics. They display a picture (a map ?) of current researches and concepts, of works in progress, but nothing in a final, in a real academic format... And I am just happy we can have this kind of freedom between us, without any academic self-control.

I am a bit afraid by the fact that map librarians are interested by this MapHist publication, and could perhaps consider it as a "reference-book" available to their readers. Is is very different to look for a factual info in a database and in a book. Are we really building a reference work (Peter should edit not only the form, but also the content of the messages !) ? Do we communicate together in order to create a collective book ? Or is it just a "real time" exchange, with its positive and its negative sides ? Should we not be aware that young scholars, students or just map-lovers, without any academic background, will perhaps have some hesitation and will no more involve themselves in our exchanges, if they know that their contributions will be printed ? Perhaps, I am wrong, and from know, MapHist will receive 300 messages a day, from people just happy to be published in the yearly book !

However, it is true that MapHist archives contain a lot of datas, ideas and facts, and Peter is right when he tries to make them available in a convenient form. Perhaps this MapHist edited archive could also be available on the WWW, in electronic format (for people like me who have no more room free on their shelves, and still believe that computers make the life easier :)

Last, but not least, it could be useful to add a short foreword to the MapHist publication hard copy, with a warning to the readers, explaining the nature of these texts, the way they were written and "published" and what one could expect from them..

Again, Peter, this is not a criticism, you did a great job for free, in order to help us: je me fais seulement l'avocat du diable (typical french sentence, just to add a touch of exotism to this cruel anglo saxon world... :)

best regards to all

Christian
-------------------------------------------------
Christian Jacob
Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique
email: jacob@msh-paris.fr Centre Louis Gernet
fax: 33 1 43 31 37 22 10, rue Monsieur-le-Prince, F-75006 Paris

Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 17:30:16 -0500
Reply-To: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
Sender: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
From: Duane F Marble <dmarble@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199603082130.QAA24478@mail0.uts.ohio-state.edu> from
"Undetermined origin c/o Postmaster" at Mar 8, 96 02:26:00 pm

Paranoia? Please read my posting! I don't care but LOTS of people do and it is a major topic with respect to the future of the net.

You might think of the parallel to copyright matters. At present, things are very open but as more and more commercial use is made of the Internet we may loose a great deal.

Finally, the questions I posed were not representative of my own views!

--
Duane F. Marble E-mail: marble.1@osu.edu
Dept. of Geography Home Page: http://thoth.sbs.ohio-state.edu
The Ohio State University Telephone: (614) 292-2250
Columbus, OH 43210 Fax: (614) 292-6213

Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 19:40:26 +-100

Reply-To: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
Sender: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
From: Marc Landvogt <marc@DOLBY.RHEIN.DE>
Subject: AW: MapHist Hardcopies 1994-1995 available?

Duane F Marble[SMTP:dmarble@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU] wrote:

>As for the U.S. view, it was the German government who recently >forced an international supplier of net services to close off

it was NOT the german government, but german prosecuters who forced compuserve to modify their german supply so it won't break german law anymore. nobody forced compuserve to close off these newsgroups worldwide! this is an important difference. - marc r l

Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 10:09:27 -0500
Reply-To: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
Sender: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
From: "Alice C. Hudson" <ahudson@NYPL.ORG>
Subject: Re[2]: MapHist Hardcopies 1994-1995 available

O.K., here's my msg to Peter for the list, below. ...I've seen the two prototypes and they are wunderbar [my own exotica] and I believe it will be clear to users what these books are all about--that they capture conversations. And yes, the recent discussion about this project illustrates a problem with conversations --we speak quickly, we misunderstand or misinterpret, we fire back....but the value of these two books so overwhelms the problems.

My biggest problem, at my age, was the small print, but it was much easier on the eye than a computer screen, so there.

Most map librarians I know are pretty sharp, and will use these, not as final reference tools, but as referral sources from readers in their shops to persons on the net with similar interests. I have used H-Urban [another list] this way extensively over the past year, in the same way I would pick up a library directory and refer.

Wait 'til you see the books, withold judgement, review them, if they are not useful, if the reviews are poor--they will disappear from the landscape. My feeling is Peter has a lifetime "publication" ahead of him. After all, there is a reason the codex form has lasted so long -- convenience and portability. Go for it, Peter.

Alice Hudson
Map Division, NYPL

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: MapHist Hardcopies 1994-1995 available
Author: ahudson at central1
Date: 3/8/96 10:52 AM

We will certainly send through an order for the Research Libraries, NYPL. This is an invaluable record of our field as we lived it--spoke it--typed it--read it--initiated it--responded to it--the hardcopy provides a very clear snapshot of what's happening in the history of cartography NOW. I suspect the content [topics] differs remarkably from what is in a very rich D8, for example. This is what is on the table now, not what's in the pantry. So eat hearty, mangia! What's for dessert?

Alice H.

Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 21:01:28 +0100
Reply-To: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
Sender: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
From: Peter van der Krogt <krogt@PI.NET>
Subject: Maphist publication or hardcopy?

Frans Koks wrote: > I move that we go even further and register the 1994-1995 >discussion list as a publication. That way, most of us will have the >benefit of receiving official recognition for their intellectual and >informative labor.

I called my printouts 'MapHist HARDCOPY' and not 'MapHist PUBLICATION'.

Why don't we list our messages to MapHist as publications? After all, we have sent our messages to over 400 'strangers' and to the Harvard archives computer, making them available for over 20 million internet users. Is the value of such messages so increased when somebody prints them and makes a few dozen copies? Does the mere fact that they are printed cause messages to be promoted to 'publications' and to receive 'official recognition'? In other words, do 60 printed copies give more value/recognition/distribution than electronic availability to over 20,000,000 people?

I don't want to start a discussion about this subject (as not relevant to the list's theme), but initially I had almost the same thoughts as Frans, as others do witness the discussions the last few days. The messages of P.J. Mode and Christian Jacob brought me to these more or less rhetorical questions. When we consider the answer to the last questions to be 'yes', then indeed, we still live in the codex era!

Peter

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:47:17 -0500

Reply-To: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
Sender: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
From: David Cobb <cobb@HUSC.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: MapHist Hardcopies 1994-1995 available
In-Reply-To: <199603081310.IAA05946@husc.harvard.edu>

I am finding the discussions of legality, "sue me or you," and/or should my discussions be deleted very interesting. First, I think Duane Marble is absolutely correct in stating that the rules of the Internet certainly stretch the current definitions of law. Because of that, I encouraged Peter van der Krogt to proceed with his printed index. I would suggest that those who do not expect to ever see their comments "in print" in the future may wish to think twice before contributing to ANY list. I think of MapHist, and other listservs, as related to "Letters to the Editor" and these are often quoted and re-released throughout the literature.

******************************************************************************
David A. Cobb Tel (617) 495-2417
Harvard Map Collection FAX (617) 496-0440
Harvard University E-Mail: Cobb@FAS.HARVARD.EDU
Cambridge, MA 02138
VE * RI * TAS
*****************************************************************************

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:58:53 -0700
Reply-To: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
Sender: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.BITNET>
From: "Paul R. Larson" <larson@EDU-SUU-SCF.SC.SUU.EDU>
Subject: Re: MapHist Hardcopies 1994-1995 available

I'm not an attorney (thank heaven), but it seems to me that submission itself implies de facto approval for use of comments a person may submit. I think David's comparison to "letters to the editor" is correct.

Peter, I agree with your comments about keeping submissions pertinent to the topic at hand, but ideas about the operation to the list itself are valid also, aren't they? I think they help us get the most out of the list.

_________________________________
Paul R. Larson. Ph.D.
Assistant Professor, Geography
Physical Science Department
Southern Utah University
Cedar City, Utah 84720
tel: (801) 865-8244
fax: (801) 865-8051
E-mail larson_p@suu.edu
__________________________________